posted 01-24-2002 10:52 PM            

I think you are alienating a good bit of people though with the harsh line you've drawn (as evidenced by some of the more hostile comments here) between scrubs and experts. While I don't take nearly as much offense to being a "scrub," there really is a gray area you're not acknowledging. There is a difference between, say, a professional NFL player, some guy who likes playing the sport, and an armchair invalid. Such is the case with fighting games.

To equate one who enjoys the game, understands the game, but simply isn't at a pro-level to be the same as a button masher is a bit extreme. I, for example, _do_ understand the dynamics of most fighting games I play, but the fact that competition here utterly stinks gives me no desire to practice and reach that tournament level. Does that make me a scrub? I'm sure I'd be toast in any real tournament; difficult competition is after all the key to improvement, and I'm not going to improve against a lackluster CPU. Just the same, I wouldn't say I'm quite a scrub either, or at least shouldn't be. It's akin to progressing through karate belts, and having a pass/fail line doesn't accurately separate the skill levels.

posted 04-15-2002 02:09 PM               

However, if I could win at the arcade using only a repeated tactic, I would find it hilarious.

posted 05-04-2002 02:21 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dynamo:

It's not my fault Capcom would waste so much disk space just to screw up the game and allow a 3x HVB in the air which has NO counter, if you ge hit with the first air one the your just going to be killed with 2 more. THAT is cheap and cannot be denied of being so.

---

Umm...no. I can and will deny it.

Solution? Don't get hit by the first beam.

Think about it. In SF2 if you get hit with a deep jumping attack you can't avoid the followups...is that cheap? If you jump towards someone after they release a fireball you get a DP every time...is that cheap?

If you get hit with a Bison crossup in ST you just lost right there. Is that cheap?

Just don't put yourself in that situation. Easier said than done, I know. But AHVBx3 is easily avoidable - just avoid the first AHVB. It's not like it's unblockable. (Except a guard break, but that is a different issue)

posted 06-06-2002 08:39 PM               

I do have one slight objection, and that is with your side comment that the British were "Historical Scrubs... The ultimate example of being too bound up by rules to actually fight. They fought 'honorably' by marching into gunfire."

In fact, the British did not march straight into gunfire out of a sense of honor. One of the most common historical misconceptions is that the clever Americans fought from behind cover, while the stupid Redcoats stood out in the open, making themselves easy targets.

Due to the innacurate nature of muskets, fighting in tight ranks was the best strategy of the time. An army of scattered soldiers would find themselves subjected to overwhelming volleys from their more organized enemies, while their individual shots kept going astray. Eventually, they would be overrun by bayonets.

Even the Americans typically fought in formation like the British. They sometimes fought under cover while using hit-and-run tactics, but for sustained battle, fighting in ranks was the only way to go.

The British did not chase the Americans around the continent, winning battle after battle at the beginning of the war, by being stupid.

posted 06-07-2002 10:23 AM               

[EDIT] typo

- Alan

posted 06-07-2002 11:04 AM               

Thanks the historical background. I stand corrected.

I'm having probelms updating the site, but when I eventually get around to straightening that out, I'll add a note to the article.

posted 06-09-2002 11:34 PM               

Sirlin must have slipped crapguy a $10 and told him "Hey troll this thread and prove all my points about scrubs"

I didn't think anyone that ignorant could exist. He demonstrates a real common problem with most scrubs though. They think top level players play the game wrong. But this has already been explained by Sirlin.

posted 06-18-2002 08:09 AM            

I was a scrub. I was holding back, I was not doing everything in my power to win, because of these made up "rules" I was following. My brother would always use Ken's anti air assist like mad, and it got annoying, but now I realise that it was part of the game, the part I never took advantge of because I thought it was too "cheap". I was putting a handicap on myself and thus, I was losing at a 10 to 1 ratio.
Thanks for changing the way I see this game and all other competive games Sirlin. You have made me a new person when it comes to games.=)

posted 06-29-2002 09:11 AM            

I agree with your definition of scrubs, as I've witnessed them myself. More than once I've been guilt tripped into throwing away matches by people who insist on playing by made up rules in their head, and its nice to see that I was actually playing the game correctly in the first place rather than being a cheater such as I was being called.

Ok having gotten that out of the way, I do have a few questions about SFII esque series gameplay that I wanted to ask in order to better my style in preparation for any torunament jaunts I may make in the next two years.

1) Reversals and tech hits: How long do you have to do them, and more importantly WHEN do you have to do them? With tech hits, I seem to notice the timing differs from game to game. In SSFIIT, for example, when I see my character first being grabbed, I can execute the reverse throw counter and get a tech hit off 90% of the time. I figure that might be about 3 or 4 ticks of reaction time there. On the other hand, in SFAII, I can't do that. I can see my character being grabbed, and do the reverse throw counter, and still take the throw. Indeed I can't even use the old SFIIT stand by of "throw when you expect to be thrown and 99% of the time you'll tech hit out of it." So from there, I have no idea when to tech hit out of throws.

Reversals...this kinda has to do with alpha counters as well. I admit (and this is probably my fault for doing this) I play by sound as well as sight. I don't alpha conter when I see the hit, I AC when I hear the block. for Alpha counter's this works perfectly, for reversals...no. I want to say "when should I reversal," but its a bit more complex than that. I'm going to use Fei Long because I seem to be able to reversal better with him than anyone. Say Ryu throws a fireball. Fei Long blocks it. Ok I know that I only have to hold back until the fireball actually connects, after which I can move the joystick any which way, and he'll still stay in block stance for about 20-30 ticks (Im assuming a frame = a tick here). Lets say on a good day I can do a fireball motion in about 4 (once again I'm guessing as to times here). My question is: when should I be doing the motion for the move relative to the block time? Should I start the move the instant the move hits, or at some time during the block phase, or time it so my move is finished the second he drops his guard (in other words, timing it so that the move completion lands in a one tick window of when you think the block is finished)?

2) Attacking. Ok this is one I used to do against neighborhood opponents and the comp, and I want to know if its ok. Simply, throwing out an non knockdown attack/combo just to hurt someone. Ok I know how silly that sounds, but then I've also heard people say that unless you're in the air, all your combos should end in knockdowns or specials, as if they don't, you're going to pay for it the second the other guy recovers. For example, just jumping in with a fierce into a forward with Ryu and saying to hell with a fireball for whatever reason, or taking Zangief and jabbing 5 times and walking away. (Actually Zangief might not be a good example because I can't think of many people besides Guile or Dee Jay who could punish you effectively for that, while Ryu could pay dearly for the above not timed right). Is it ok to base a strategy around that type of "take what you can get and save the specials for later," fighting, or should I be basing everything around ending in a special or knockdown?

3) Fighting against Zangief with Ryu...any pointers? I know it's not the best proposition, but eventually that day will come, so I may as well learn how to do it effectively. Whenever I win a battle with Ryu against Zangief, it was because of a) sheer dumb luck or b) the other guy didn't know what he was doing. How should I go about picking apart a good Zangief player's D and offense. Biggest concerns here are the chest splash and the piledriver, as I can work around everything else. Is there a way to knock the chest splash out: I've found dragon punches, standing fierces, and standinf forwards (SFAII) are less than effective against it, but then this was some time ago since I've really really played a dfficult match against another Zangief. Is it a timing thing, or is the chest splash just invincible coming down?

posted 06-29-2002 01:06 PM               

Slack86:
1a) If you input a throw command within X frames of the opponent throwing you, you will get a "tech hit". The value of X changes from game to game. In ST it's very large. In A2 it's pretty small.

Also note this weird case in games with non-instant throws like CVS2. Opponent inputs throw command. Throw doesn't actually come out for like 7 frames or soemthing. On frame 5, you input throw command, expecting a tech hit. You won't actually be thrown for another 2 frames, so there is nothing to tech out of. Instead, you begin your own 7 frame throw startup. 2 frames later, you get thrown and don't get a tech unless you input another throw command after the opponent's throw actually starts.

1b) Reversals. If you perform any special move the first frame you get up from a knockdown, or come out of blockstun or hitstun, you get a reversal message (first appeared in Super Street Fighter 2). If you execute a move on the 2nd frame after coming out of those states, you don't get a reversal, and your dragon punch won't actually come out if you stand up into a "meaty" attack. You need that first frame reversal. So time your motion so that your button press happens on the first frame after getting out of blockstun (or whatever) or A LITTLE EARLIER. SF gives you some leeway here, and if you input your reversal a few frames before you come out of blockstun (or a get up) you will still get the reversal.

2) Your goal is to win the game, not do combos that end in a knockdown. If you have a chance to do a combo, you should do the one that does the most damage. A minor factor is if one combo results in you being in position for going for a good crossup, you might choose that combo over a slightly more damaging one because of the follow up potential. But if you even have to ask the question, you should do the most damaging combo you can. Examples of bad combos would be "jump roundhouse, low forward" and "5 jabs." Ryu should be doing fierce, fierce, (super) fireball. Or in ST, crossup rh, overhead, link to low forward, super fireball. If combos happen to knock down, then so be it. But learn the most damaging combos you can and go for them.

3) Your dragon punch is invulnerable. Zangief cannot hit it with a splash. Always Dragon punch at the last possible moment. Zangief can trick you by jumping in from too far away. Stand fierce (the straight version) is a good move against Zangief who jumps in from too far. Slow fireballs and standind fieres should keep him out well. Be prepared to do deep dp when he gets close enought to splash, though.

posted 06-29-2002 10:43 PM            

As for your article, I was thinking about it, and as I said before, I agree, its right on the money. Having said that, there is one thing I would like to disagree partially on: things such as infinites and unblockable custom combos. Not that I'm afraid of taking advantage of them...there is no point in wishing something wasn't in the game when someone's shoving it down your throat so you might as well use it first. However, I think that having infinites and cc's actually takes something AWAY from the game.

Look at it like this: there are no formal rules in a tournament as far as whats cheap and what isn't. If you can do it you can do it. Any rules there may be are set by the game itself (no leaving the ring, no calling in friends depending on the game, no heavy weaponry, etc etc). So granted, the game does operate by a set of rules, even if we don't personally set them. What the game's rules do is set the pace and tone for the match, as well as give us an expectation of the type of fight to come. In SFA, you can't pick up sticks, you can't receed into the background and go get weaponry, or call your friend up and ask him to join in with you. So we know stuff like that is automatically out. Obviously SFA won't turn into Final Fight any time soon with those kind of rules. And thats the whole point of them being there...

Now, lets look at real life for a moment: in a kickboxing match, the opponents shouldn't be pulling punches, just as in an arcade match, but even when they're going balls to the wall to knock each other out, there are rules set to make the match a kickboxing match: you can't leave the ring, you can't turn your back on the opponent, you can't kne someone's head depending on the circuit you're in...obviously no weapons or guns alowed. And no friends jumping in to help. This keeps kickboxing matches from turning into deathmatches or gangland battles where the boxer with the most friends with guns wins. And that is the point of those rules being there...

So where does this lead us...Well lets go back to the arcade machine example. Ok we have your arcade SFA/IIX machine, with the rules set by the game. These rules keep SFA SFA, and keep hits, recoveries, and knockouts pretty consistient in that universe. It is normal to see someone get knocked out by a Dragon Punch. You will NEVER see someone get koed by a semitruck. Now, it is normal for people to learn how to stretch and bend the rules as time goes on. Eventually people are going to start learning how to reversal, how to crouch cancel, how to juggle and the like. These things make the game more interesting, and make people work harder to win the fight. Now here comes some guy with the ability to do an infinite in the game. The first time he hits someone, they're screwed. So basically, he can end fights in 5 seconds or less. Should he use this ability? Well if he doesn't want to go through 20 bucks of quarters I say yes. However (and this is a completely different question), should he be able to use this ability? Well whether he should or shouldn't be able to do something is decided by the rules of the game, not rules that we decide out of made up senses of honor which hold us back from becoming our best.

To clarify that bit more, lets look at our friends in the kickboxing arena again. Say one of our friends discovers a neat trick: if I stand this way with my back to the wind, and kick the opponent at precisely this angle, into the ropes, I'll knock him out every time. On paper, he's breaking no rule, its perfectly legal to stand into the wind and kick X way a person into the ropes. It just so happens that when you do that the way this guy is, you get a clean knockout everytime. What do YOU think the comission of that paticular circuit would do? Their rules now provide a technique which can end a match in seconds, and sooner or later every good fighter is going to learn it. Who's going to pay to see a five second fight? Better yet who's going to fight a five second fight? The poor fighters aren't, because they aren't. And sooner or later the good fighters aren't, because they're going to realize that this is a God vs God chess match as mentioned earlier, and the only thing they're battling for is to see who gets to be white. Suddenly its no longer your typical kickboxing match. Scratch that it's no longer what the rulecrafters even intended. If the rulecrafters intended for matches to be five seconds long, then they would create rules specifically for 5 second fights, create rings for 5 second battles and what not.

What am I getting at: there comes a time when players outgrow the rules of the game, and in order to play the same game you have to make new rules. For real life proof of this look at basketball: back when it was first concieved it was a much much simpler game. It was fast paced, energetic, demanding, not today's game but still action packed. Then taller people started playing, and what happened. We'd wind up with situations where teams would win games 2-0 because they got their tall guy to shoot a basket, and then stay in the lane all the rest of the game, knowing no one else could handle him or follow him in. No they weren't breaking the rules, but they were playing suck assed games by stretching them. Definetly not the game the creators had intended. So now we have the shot clock, and a smaler lane, and a number of other features to keep the game from reverting to instant bordeom. In other words, when the players outgrew the game, we changed the rules to fit.

That is how I feel about infinites and invincible CC's. Yes, do whatever it takes to win, no one wants to go broke for honor's sake. In the meantime, a representative from Capcom should be doing 100* down a freeway somewhere with a ROM with the latest bug fixes that limit character combos and kill any invincible custom combos in their games. Why? Because lets face it, even though the game can handle infinites, it wasn't made for infinites, in the same way that just because a guy could stand in the lane for 2 hours in a 1950's basketball game didn't mean thats how basketball should be played. Obviously we as players have found a way to morph the rules to the point where streetfighter isn't quite streetfighter anymore, and as the rule makers, its Capcom's/(insert game makers name here) responsibility to make new rules to bring the game back, at keast until we stretch those to the limit too.