The use of the straw man fallacy as a defense mechanism is so powerful. If you represent a group of people, people from any opposition groups will do everything they can to make your comments as extreme as possible in order to make you look like a total ass.

Both scrubs and people “playing to win” do it all the time. I think that there’s some medium between the Sirlin view of playing to win and being a total scrub that needs to be breached. I think Sirlin’s views are too harsh for the average scrub, and that scrub defense mechanisms immediately kick up and slander (erm, libel) anything that could even remotely resemble an attack.

Terrible analogy. That is all.

How do you possibly reconcile those two statements? You say that you actively want to play with large groups of people, and enjoy 25-man instances… and yet you simultaneously refuse to play with large groups at the drop of a hat???

I’m sorry, but the counterargument to your supposed “philosophy” is pretty simple… I *would* go through the logistical trouble, because the only reason I play an MMO in the first place is for large-scale co-op, the day WoW actually becomes a 5-man max game, I’m going back to ffxi, as frustrating as that game can be. As long as 25-man is even an option, it’s the option I will choose. Your claim that 25-mans would disappear is simply idiotic. It simply wouldn’t happen, and you don’t seem to have any reason to claim it would happen, except stating that it’s “obvious”.

Sooo, if you consider my view a possibility, if 25’s should disappear. Then WoW is now a completely different beast. And I don’t like that. I don’t even like the POSSIBILTY of that! Why? Because WoW is all about getting large groups of diverse people together to achieve something greater than themselves. There is a lot of gratification in that. A sense of community and belonging. It is also what makes MMO’s different. Lot’s and lot’s of people doing stuff. All the drama and issues that go with that is ALSO the fun part despite and BECAUSE of the extra angst… you clearly entirely disagree with that point.

The only reason, I believe, that you are wanting a 5 man raid or better still a 2 man raid is completely selfish. You want your cake and eat it too, so to speak. You want to experience all WoW’s content without having to deal with pesky people. I’m sorry but that’s not what WoW is all about. There are literally thousands of games to play by yourself or with friends and family. There are only a few that you can play with people all over the world and who are basically strangers.

@Claytus To say there is NOT a philosophical difference is ridiculous. Because there so obviously is. As for providing evidence!? wtf. I suppose I could surf the ‘net to find some stuff that might be pertinent, but I thought this article was out for canvassing opinion…

OK, I’ve said my piece. I apologise if I seem to ramble and my thoughts appear jumbled. I’m just a gamer who thinks 10 mans and less ARE inferior and attempted to state my case as clearly as I could :).

Ninja Gaiden only takes 1 player, according to your definition, that’s clearly the easiest game ever created. Watch out for Rock Band though, that game’s got 4 players, must be much harder than NG, it’s only meant for the hardcore, obviously. And don’t forget Mario Kart… the dreaded 8-player game, we’re now looking at an insurmountable challenge for the average man.

Seriously, there is no “philosophical” disagreement here… you just clearly don’t know what your talking about, and have no evidence to support your position.

WoW creates an artificial system of haves and have’nots. Whether that is a good idea or not is beyond the scope of this, so let’s take it as given that it’s the goal to maintain this. Certainly you agree with that, as you want elite people to feel good about themselves because they have more than others. I never even said anything against that, so far there is no problem between us.

Ok, so we want to preserve the have’s and have nots. Great. They can choose between a 25 man raid or a 5 or 10 man that is HARDER and a bit LONGER per person, per drop. If you agree that it’s harder and longer (after taking organization of 25 into account) then you can’t possibly have a problem. Your actual problem is that you reject the given but don’t really explain why. You assume that this harder 5 man is not harder. You assume that it’s “watered down.” Note that I did not suggest a “watered down” instance, but instead a HARDER one. If you think no such dungeon is possible, that is where I claim your lack of imagination. But I don’t know exactly why you reject this given and instead substitute it for a “watered down” version in your mind.

Saying that no one played 40 mans after other options are available is meaningless because there weren’t 40 mans and 25’s with the same gear options, balanced against each other in the way we’re talking about here. There were old 40 mans you had no reason to do and new 25 mans with better loot. So this is not even a valid thing to bring up.

Finally, you want the sweet to be sweeter because of all the work. Again, you are rejecting the given here. No one argued against that at any point, but you seem to think the theoretical 5 and 10 mans do not have as much work. Let me define what the theoretical 10 man is for you: “A 10-man dungeon that DOES have as much work as the 25.” So, by definition, there is no actual problem.

What you should really do is set aside all of your philosophical disagreements, because there AREN’T ANY when you get down to it. Your entire complaint rests on rejecting the given, saying that no such dungeon could be designed.

My view is that 40 man and 25 man raids are inherently more difficult. To organise and to mold into a fighting force and then, to go out and succeed as well is a big undertaking.

Your view ( as I understand it… ) is that 10 man and 5’s are just as difficult and could be more so! For differing reasons e.g. make the instance more difficult etc. So therefore make the gaming experience just as good or even BETTER! And more accessible to more people.

I do not disaggree. I just think that the sense of achievement will be lessened.

I can hear the scoffing already. Lessened! pfft! How do you quantify that, anyway?
You can’t. And that’s the philosophcal difference…

I feel the molding, the gearing, the training of 40 or 25 people is far more difficult and challenging. Therefore the pay-off of personal gratification much more intense. And isn’t that what human experience is all about? And what gaming is all about?

The added bonus to the gratification for hard-core raiders is that not everyone will achieve what they have. Even more personal gratification! Leetness :).

As I understand your view. Everyone should be able to enjoy the same feelings even if ( in my opinion ) it is watered down. And I strongly disaggree with that. It’s PC garbage. It’s like giving everyone a trophy because they ran in a race. Nevermind the winner is going ” they get a trophy, too!!! “.

Also, you really think that 25’s will stay! You KNOW that’s not gonna happen. As soon as 40’s were superceded did ANYONE try to organise another 40 again? Of course not. You will say that’s just my point! And I say that’s mine, too!! Even if people KNOW they will get a greater sense of achievement, people, me included, will go for the “watered down” version everytime. All about trade-offs, I guess.

So the crux of the matter, to me, is that if you change the structure of WoW instancing to include different raid sizes, you will fundamentally change the game. The people who enjoyed exclusivity ( the main reason they try so hard AT the game AND their main source of gratification from the game ) will be upset about that and will fight any kind of change like that to the last pixel… And it astounds me that you can’t see that. And if you do, to disregard that feeling out of hand.

Sooo… before you tear my view apart ( if in deed you can be bothered :) ). Just note that just because I may not be articulating my view as effectively as it could or should be. Does not mean I’m a poor deluded soul who lacks imagination. I think that’s patronizing and completely incorrect. Your vision of a game that is inclusive to everybody. Is able to satisfy everyone’s taste is a beautiful one. Trying to tweak WoW to be able to achieve that is great idea. I can actually see that, OK.

Consider a world where 25 man raids are exactly like now, but 5 and 10 man versions lead to the same rewards, but are HARDER and take LONGER per person. Your claim is that 25 man raids would all be abandoned. That is an absolutely crushing blow to the existence of them in the first place. It would reveal that no one ever actually wanted them to begin with. If that is true, then the resulting game would certainly be more fun, basically be definition.

But I am not actually claiming that. The other possibility, the more likely one I think, is that people would still do 25 man raids. Maybe they can even get the +10 dark sword of raiding instead of the (functionally identical) +10 sword of 10-manning. But anyway, I think you’d see that group size is a social choice and that some people really and truly enjoy 25 man raids. I bet a lot of people in this very thread will tell you that they really and truly enjoy them and who am I to tell them that they don’t? Furthermore, if they really and truly enjoy them and the game is tuned to make time spend and difficulty per person a bit easier in 25-man (to compensate for the for the organization) then why wouldn’t they keep playing them?

Your interpretation is that no one would play them at all and the only reason they do now is that they are bribed and manipulated into playing in a way they don’t even like. I claim that is true for some people (the ones who we ALL would rather not be in 25-man raids) and not true for others (who will happily continue to raid.)

Furthermore, I’m claiming that I don’t even need to know who is right between you and me because the result is the same. The result is that bribing people to do 25-mans when they would have more fun playing the game another way is simply a bad design choice.

Finally, the arguments about “the tougher the road, the sweeter the victory” are straw-man arguments. No one really argued against that ever in the first place. I don’t see how that applies here when no one proposed any less tough of a road. It seems like you really just don’t believe in the premise that it is POSSIBLE to create 5 or 10 man dungeons with the same challenge and time spent per person as 25 man. I’d say that’s a lack of your ability to imagine, rather than an impossibility of design.