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	<title>Comments on: Playing to Win, Part 2: Mailbag</title>
	<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/</link>
	<description>A game designer's eye view of things</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: TD</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-96151</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-96151</guid>
					<description>All games have a set of rules under which you can take certain actions. The game is confined to that ruleset. Cheating is doing something outside of that ruleset. That is what cheating is by definition. If you are cheating, then you aren't playing the same game, and because you aren't playing the same game, most likely you're a scrub because the reason people cheat in serious play is because they are insufficiently skilled to beat the better players, and thus justify violating the ruleset.

Fundamentally, removing a piece from the chessboard is not playing chess. If you don't understand that, you understand nothing. But playing in a particular way in chess, taking allowable actions, however counterintuitive, is always legal.

Its also worth noting that real life can be seen as a game of sorts. Remember, our rules are quite loose, but while you CAN do anything, you have to understand there are consequences. The more you cheat, the closer you get to reality, where the rules are more and more set by other people, and thus ultimately you have less and less control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All games have a set of rules under which you can take certain actions. The game is confined to that ruleset. Cheating is doing something outside of that ruleset. That is what cheating is by definition. If you are cheating, then you aren&#8217;t playing the same game, and because you aren&#8217;t playing the same game, most likely you&#8217;re a scrub because the reason people cheat in serious play is because they are insufficiently skilled to beat the better players, and thus justify violating the ruleset.</p>
<p>Fundamentally, removing a piece from the chessboard is not playing chess. If you don&#8217;t understand that, you understand nothing. But playing in a particular way in chess, taking allowable actions, however counterintuitive, is always legal.</p>
<p>Its also worth noting that real life can be seen as a game of sorts. Remember, our rules are quite loose, but while you CAN do anything, you have to understand there are consequences. The more you cheat, the closer you get to reality, where the rules are more and more set by other people, and thus ultimately you have less and less control.
</p>
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		<title>by: Haus</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-81299</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-81299</guid>
					<description>Okay, she won the award for best comment ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, she won the award for best comment ever.
</p>
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		<title>by: Lil' Kitsu</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-81203</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-81203</guid>
					<description>Well, I feel the need to comment on this really old article 'cause I was that 9 year old girl. Back in the day my brother [about seven years my senior] was the local champ of the MvsC2 tournaments and he would always sort of play around when I got up on the controls (and by play around, I mean make it apparent that he wasn't trying very hard to decimate my team, but it was alot of fun because he'd make jokes and say things so dying was a very entertaining experience...) and I'd be all *uber super button mash of Doom... oh darn...* Always stuck with Felicia, even when people got out flying guys who do well against her and BB Hood, even though she's low tier...
But fast forward a few years and my dad takes me to the arcade for a bit and I'm short and female and look like I have no idea what I'm doing so some guy comes up to challenge me. Naturally, I'm used to playing against my brother and the merciless guys from the tournament and this person is just a C level player, so me and my kitty proceed to destroy him, and after every win I would be all acting like I couldn't believe I won and sooner or later I just started playing with him (waiting until he jumps into one of my supers and taunting randomly so he runs into Dr. Doom's rocks or Blackheart's ice column trying to take me off guard and stuff like that), so my dad just gives the guy quarters until he manages to pull off a win (it took awhile) and afterwards he says to me all perturbed, &quot;Don't you know you could've ruined that guy's whole day?&quot;
One of the tournament players came back after a long time (most of them had moved off to college and the arcade was under new management, and the new management was stupid and was in the process of selling all the good games and fighting games and filling the place with Spongebob Racing and Whack-An-Alligator and lame stuff like that) and played against me, and I didn't remember who he was and he basically had me in several positions where I couldn't attack him (like in the air being super-ed), but I was all over him nonetheless when I could attack. So I lost and he was all, &quot;Hey, you must be Cliff's sister...&quot; Apparently, even though I lost, I played good enough for him to recognize me, which made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside (family honor and all that good stuff).
But all of that rambling was to say that going hard on the little girl and her losing doesn't necessarily mean she had no business playing in the first place. Everyone has to start from somewhere, if she's determined she'll just get better and start embarrassing some poor boy one of these days ^ ^. At least that's what I did... I would've never learned to play like that if my brother was all callous while I was on the game or if he got down to my level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I feel the need to comment on this really old article &#8217;cause I was that 9 year old girl. Back in the day my brother [about seven years my senior] was the local champ of the MvsC2 tournaments and he would always sort of play around when I got up on the controls (and by play around, I mean make it apparent that he wasn&#8217;t trying very hard to decimate my team, but it was alot of fun because he&#8217;d make jokes and say things so dying was a very entertaining experience&#8230;) and I&#8217;d be all *uber super button mash of Doom&#8230; oh darn&#8230;* Always stuck with Felicia, even when people got out flying guys who do well against her and BB Hood, even though she&#8217;s low tier&#8230;<br />
But fast forward a few years and my dad takes me to the arcade for a bit and I&#8217;m short and female and look like I have no idea what I&#8217;m doing so some guy comes up to challenge me. Naturally, I&#8217;m used to playing against my brother and the merciless guys from the tournament and this person is just a C level player, so me and my kitty proceed to destroy him, and after every win I would be all acting like I couldn&#8217;t believe I won and sooner or later I just started playing with him (waiting until he jumps into one of my supers and taunting randomly so he runs into Dr. Doom&#8217;s rocks or Blackheart&#8217;s ice column trying to take me off guard and stuff like that), so my dad just gives the guy quarters until he manages to pull off a win (it took awhile) and afterwards he says to me all perturbed, &#8220;Don&#8217;t you know you could&#8217;ve ruined that guy&#8217;s whole day?&#8221;<br />
One of the tournament players came back after a long time (most of them had moved off to college and the arcade was under new management, and the new management was stupid and was in the process of selling all the good games and fighting games and filling the place with Spongebob Racing and Whack-An-Alligator and lame stuff like that) and played against me, and I didn&#8217;t remember who he was and he basically had me in several positions where I couldn&#8217;t attack him (like in the air being super-ed), but I was all over him nonetheless when I could attack. So I lost and he was all, &#8220;Hey, you must be Cliff&#8217;s sister&#8230;&#8221; Apparently, even though I lost, I played good enough for him to recognize me, which made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside (family honor and all that good stuff).<br />
But all of that rambling was to say that going hard on the little girl and her losing doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean she had no business playing in the first place. Everyone has to start from somewhere, if she&#8217;s determined she&#8217;ll just get better and start embarrassing some poor boy one of these days ^ ^. At least that&#8217;s what I did&#8230; I would&#8217;ve never learned to play like that if my brother was all callous while I was on the game or if he got down to my level.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mareth</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-63067</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-63067</guid>
					<description>&quot;But if you dont cheat, in my opinion, your not really playing at all.&quot;
In your opinion? I suggest getting out of that opinion. That way, you'll make more sense to others and will get punched in the face much less often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But if you dont cheat, in my opinion, your not really playing at all.&#8221;<br />
In your opinion? I suggest getting out of that opinion. That way, you&#8217;ll make more sense to others and will get punched in the face much less often.
</p>
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		<title>by: This is all BS</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-62274</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-62274</guid>
					<description>There is no &quot;defualt rule set&quot; if your playing to win.

I guess the flaw in your argument that playing to win, is ok, however playing to win by cheating is not. 

But if you dont cheat, in my opinion, your not really playing at all.

In the end, everyone is a scrub, there is nothing else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no &#8220;defualt rule set&#8221; if your playing to win.</p>
<p>I guess the flaw in your argument that playing to win, is ok, however playing to win by cheating is not. </p>
<p>But if you dont cheat, in my opinion, your not really playing at all.</p>
<p>In the end, everyone is a scrub, there is nothing else.
</p>
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		<title>by: Tom W</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-49859</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 02:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-49859</guid>
					<description>Ok, how about this scenario.
In football(soccer for you americans), there are a few unwritten rules which are looked upon almost as official rules, despite their not being in the rulebook itself.

For example, if a player gets injured and his team has possession of the ball, they will kick it out of play for a throw in so that he can get treatment, because the referee cannot stop the game just for this reason.(in the case of a head inury he can, but otherwise not). This is all well and good. 
        However, if the player is injured and the opposing team has the ball, they are not obliged, but are fully expected (by everyone involved in the game- fans, the coach, other players etc) to also kick the ball out for a throw so the ijured player can get treatment. Once this is done, the ball is returned to the team which had possession, usually by returning it to their goalkeeper.
  Considering this second situation, there are ways that the team who has possession (teamP) can cynically use it to their advantage, and also ways in which the team who don't have possession (teamI)-whose player is injured- can cynically use this situation to their advantage. 
  TeamP can do 2 things. One is done fairly regualrly, and the other i have only seen once ever, and i remember it because it happened against the team i support!
 The first thing they can do is ignore the injured player and play on- ie attack, press forward, try to score etc. Remember they are not obliged by the rules to put the ball out of play. The fans of teamI will at this point start to whistle and boo against the 'bad sportsmanship' shown by teamP, and if teamP score (bearing in mind they have a man advantage) then usually the fans, coach pundits etc will be up in arms about the event, and it will become a major talking point. 
ll this time the injured player will presumably be rolling around on the floor, and one reason teamP might carry on is because they think the injured player is 'playacting'(which i will come to later)
 The second thing they can do is the 'honorable' thing, and put the ball out of play, having it returned to them after.
 The third thing(which is the event i have only seen once, and therefore i shall describe this to you through that incident) is this. TeamP put the ball out of play and the injured player is treated. All of teamP's players advance upfield in the expectation of teamI's return of the ball to their goalkeeper, who will restart with a long kick upfield. The teamI player who is taking the throw throws it back to the 'keeper, but before he can get to it a player from teamI runs downfield, takes the ball and scores, as teamP's defence is all upfield waiting for the goalkick.
 This event caused so much uproar that the manager of teamI offered to replay the match(which actually happened), because he accepted that this was completely unsportsmanlike conduct (when they interviewed the teamI player who scored, it turned out he was foreign(from africa, which has a different football culture to europe) and this kind of practice would not be frowned upon there.
 The final thing i promised i'd get to is the issue of playacting. This whole situation is now being turned on its head, so that if teamI loses the ball and teamP sprints upfield, &amp;#38; are looking like scoring, a player from teamI will deliberately pretend to be injured so that teamP puts the ball out and lose their attacking advantage.
  It has got to the point now that the game states that teamP does not have to put the ball out unless the referee says so, deliberately to stop the kind of behaviour immediately above.

 So teamI is acting completely within the rules by pretending to be injured(as there's no way of telling for sure) or not returning the throw and using it to catch teamP off guard, yet there's no way that the 2nd option would happen, simply because of the disgrace which would be placed upon the club and players afterwards. And teamP are acting within the rules by ignoring the injured player if they think he is playacting(sometimes he is, sometimes not, sometimes he really is injured but does a bit of acting on top) 
By your definition, however, all the people(pretty much everyone in the football world) who would complain about this practice(im speaking about throwing the ball back here, playacting and the subsequent ignoring of it are fairly commonplace) are 'scrubs' because of this. I would not equate this 'scrubbishness' with the types described in your article, but there is no solid reason i can give for this opinion other than the extent to which this sense of 'sporting-ness' is so deeply ingrained in football, to the point where it cannot be broken.

sorry to be so long winded, i tried to explain it as clearly as possible, i wonder if you have any thoughts on this matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, how about this scenario.<br />
In football(soccer for you americans), there are a few unwritten rules which are looked upon almost as official rules, despite their not being in the rulebook itself.</p>
<p>For example, if a player gets injured and his team has possession of the ball, they will kick it out of play for a throw in so that he can get treatment, because the referee cannot stop the game just for this reason.(in the case of a head inury he can, but otherwise not). This is all well and good.<br />
        However, if the player is injured and the opposing team has the ball, they are not obliged, but are fully expected (by everyone involved in the game- fans, the coach, other players etc) to also kick the ball out for a throw so the ijured player can get treatment. Once this is done, the ball is returned to the team which had possession, usually by returning it to their goalkeeper.<br />
  Considering this second situation, there are ways that the team who has possession (teamP) can cynically use it to their advantage, and also ways in which the team who don&#8217;t have possession (teamI)-whose player is injured- can cynically use this situation to their advantage.<br />
  TeamP can do 2 things. One is done fairly regualrly, and the other i have only seen once ever, and i remember it because it happened against the team i support!<br />
 The first thing they can do is ignore the injured player and play on- ie attack, press forward, try to score etc. Remember they are not obliged by the rules to put the ball out of play. The fans of teamI will at this point start to whistle and boo against the &#8216;bad sportsmanship&#8217; shown by teamP, and if teamP score (bearing in mind they have a man advantage) then usually the fans, coach pundits etc will be up in arms about the event, and it will become a major talking point.<br />
ll this time the injured player will presumably be rolling around on the floor, and one reason teamP might carry on is because they think the injured player is &#8216;playacting&#8217;(which i will come to later)<br />
 The second thing they can do is the &#8216;honorable&#8217; thing, and put the ball out of play, having it returned to them after.<br />
 The third thing(which is the event i have only seen once, and therefore i shall describe this to you through that incident) is this. TeamP put the ball out of play and the injured player is treated. All of teamP&#8217;s players advance upfield in the expectation of teamI&#8217;s return of the ball to their goalkeeper, who will restart with a long kick upfield. The teamI player who is taking the throw throws it back to the &#8216;keeper, but before he can get to it a player from teamI runs downfield, takes the ball and scores, as teamP&#8217;s defence is all upfield waiting for the goalkick.<br />
 This event caused so much uproar that the manager of teamI offered to replay the match(which actually happened), because he accepted that this was completely unsportsmanlike conduct (when they interviewed the teamI player who scored, it turned out he was foreign(from africa, which has a different football culture to europe) and this kind of practice would not be frowned upon there.<br />
 The final thing i promised i&#8217;d get to is the issue of playacting. This whole situation is now being turned on its head, so that if teamI loses the ball and teamP sprints upfield, &amp; are looking like scoring, a player from teamI will deliberately pretend to be injured so that teamP puts the ball out and lose their attacking advantage.<br />
  It has got to the point now that the game states that teamP does not have to put the ball out unless the referee says so, deliberately to stop the kind of behaviour immediately above.</p>
<p> So teamI is acting completely within the rules by pretending to be injured(as there&#8217;s no way of telling for sure) or not returning the throw and using it to catch teamP off guard, yet there&#8217;s no way that the 2nd option would happen, simply because of the disgrace which would be placed upon the club and players afterwards. And teamP are acting within the rules by ignoring the injured player if they think he is playacting(sometimes he is, sometimes not, sometimes he really is injured but does a bit of acting on top)<br />
By your definition, however, all the people(pretty much everyone in the football world) who would complain about this practice(im speaking about throwing the ball back here, playacting and the subsequent ignoring of it are fairly commonplace) are &#8217;scrubs&#8217; because of this. I would not equate this &#8217;scrubbishness&#8217; with the types described in your article, but there is no solid reason i can give for this opinion other than the extent to which this sense of &#8217;sporting-ness&#8217; is so deeply ingrained in football, to the point where it cannot be broken.</p>
<p>sorry to be so long winded, i tried to explain it as clearly as possible, i wonder if you have any thoughts on this matter.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mr. Dogma</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-39003</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-39003</guid>
					<description>I also forgot to mention I was using said move because 1) I didn't really know how to play the character I was using and 2) It was a terrible match-up and I'd have lost to a massive pressure game and speed my character couldn't even handle. I left out the most critical point I wanted to ask: Using the same move over and over, even I believed it to be cheap to use it over and over like that against someone who didn't really know the game too well (even though I knew the counter to it). However, does my thinking like that still leave me as scrub, or is the fact that even with that mindset I still used it anyway leave me in a gray area instead?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also forgot to mention I was using said move because 1) I didn&#8217;t really know how to play the character I was using and 2) It was a terrible match-up and I&#8217;d have lost to a massive pressure game and speed my character couldn&#8217;t even handle. I left out the most critical point I wanted to ask: Using the same move over and over, even I believed it to be cheap to use it over and over like that against someone who didn&#8217;t really know the game too well (even though I knew the counter to it). However, does my thinking like that still leave me as scrub, or is the fact that even with that mindset I still used it anyway leave me in a gray area instead?
</p>
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		<title>by: Mr. Dogma</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-39001</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-39001</guid>
					<description>My experience lies only in Naruto 4, since it's the first competitive game I picked up, but I wanted to leave scrubdom. For a while I would play one character to learn him, and eventually started toppling all those who played except 2nd and 3rd in state. Granted, I win on occasion, but the matches between us are few and far between compared to the normal group I play with. Because I didn't want to alienate people I started using characters I don't normally use. Granted, I still played those characters with the intent to beat my opponent silly, but would you consider it scrubby of me to even change out of my usual list?

In preparation for tournament this coming weekend, I've actually shed my entire character list to move up to Top Tier characters. My original cast included a low tier as my best character, and two high-mid tiers as my second and third best. I still don't know the characters as well as my old list, but are statistically better. Plus, because of the huge rise in abilities of the characters I still do just as well, and possibly even better. I've even got down moves that do 100% damage as well as practicing another technique which is unblockable. When I play these characters, I play with the intent of taking down anyone I'm going against and have absolutely no problem applying such tactics against beginners. This once again begs the question if reserving my best characters for the top players is scrubby? Cause I'd like to think I've moved past that, considering in a casual I had no problem applying a constant unblockable move against a newbie because I didn't want to pass the stick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience lies only in Naruto 4, since it&#8217;s the first competitive game I picked up, but I wanted to leave scrubdom. For a while I would play one character to learn him, and eventually started toppling all those who played except 2nd and 3rd in state. Granted, I win on occasion, but the matches between us are few and far between compared to the normal group I play with. Because I didn&#8217;t want to alienate people I started using characters I don&#8217;t normally use. Granted, I still played those characters with the intent to beat my opponent silly, but would you consider it scrubby of me to even change out of my usual list?</p>
<p>In preparation for tournament this coming weekend, I&#8217;ve actually shed my entire character list to move up to Top Tier characters. My original cast included a low tier as my best character, and two high-mid tiers as my second and third best. I still don&#8217;t know the characters as well as my old list, but are statistically better. Plus, because of the huge rise in abilities of the characters I still do just as well, and possibly even better. I&#8217;ve even got down moves that do 100% damage as well as practicing another technique which is unblockable. When I play these characters, I play with the intent of taking down anyone I&#8217;m going against and have absolutely no problem applying such tactics against beginners. This once again begs the question if reserving my best characters for the top players is scrubby? Cause I&#8217;d like to think I&#8217;ve moved past that, considering in a casual I had no problem applying a constant unblockable move against a newbie because I didn&#8217;t want to pass the stick.
</p>
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		<title>by: nanometer</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-37719</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-37719</guid>
					<description>I think that handicap is perfect (depending on how it is implemented). It is an in-game mechanism, and allows you to play to your highest level while still giving your unskilled opponent a &quot;fighting chance&quot;. It is likely that playing with a handicap will allow you to learn more from an opponent that you are much better than than playing regularly, as you will have to use all of your tricks instead of just practicing your basics one more time. My group uses handicaps extensively for smash brothers matches, and I can tell you that I would not be as devastatingly proficient with sleep as I am without it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that handicap is perfect (depending on how it is implemented). It is an in-game mechanism, and allows you to play to your highest level while still giving your unskilled opponent a &#8220;fighting chance&#8221;. It is likely that playing with a handicap will allow you to learn more from an opponent that you are much better than than playing regularly, as you will have to use all of your tricks instead of just practicing your basics one more time. My group uses handicaps extensively for smash brothers matches, and I can tell you that I would not be as devastatingly proficient with sleep as I am without it.
</p>
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		<title>by: Rowan</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-27542</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag/#comment-27542</guid>
					<description>I need to know what you think about using Handicaps in games to even up things. When playing with my friend in Super Smash bros melee I`m forced to either tone down or have a high (or low, I forget now) handicap.

Is using a handicap and giving your all still playing to win... or is it scrubdom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to know what you think about using Handicaps in games to even up things. When playing with my friend in Super Smash bros melee I`m forced to either tone down or have a high (or low, I forget now) handicap.</p>
<p>Is using a handicap and giving your all still playing to win&#8230; or is it scrubdom.
</p>
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