<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.0.1" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Playing to Win, Part 3: Not Playing to Win</title>
	<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/</link>
	<description>A game designer's eye view of things</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: Alamar</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-194842</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-194842</guid>
					<description>If you used oddball counters and &quot;weak&quot; characters to further your knowledge and ability to play, are you not playing to win? Could that not be likened to a gambit where you suffer small defeats but hope to ultimately take the field?

I ask because I am thinking of someone who &quot;plays to win&quot; in another field entirely. I'm not a competitive gamer, though I find the field interesting. I was a competitive &quot;action&quot; shooter until money troubles made it impractical to &quot;play to win.&quot; (And will be again, I might add) Brian Enos, the father of modern action pistol shooting, would do goofy things that everyone considered foolish. Instead of holding the pistol the &quot;best&quot; way, he would arbitrarily try anything that came to mind during practice.

He, Rob Leatham, and other like thinking friends took the action pistol game by storm. They laid waste to &quot;the way things are&quot; and turned things upside down. I relate this because he didn't do these things simply to enjoy shooting more, he was also playing to win.

As a side note, I find very little difference in mindset between winners in various competitions. The only biggie I've encountered is that sports like action shooting often benefit from a great deal of thought beforehand and no thought in the &quot;doing.&quot; Thinking in the middle of an IDPA or IPSC stage means you are going slow. You should already know what to do, how to do it, and how to react if you screw it up, before you step up to the line. I believe this is because the game is extremely fast and you don't directly compete against another person. They post their time, you post yours. The opponent is distilled out of your performance; you can still lose but you don't fight anyone directly. In video games, it's mano e mano. Quick, creative thinking can make the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you used oddball counters and &#8220;weak&#8221; characters to further your knowledge and ability to play, are you not playing to win? Could that not be likened to a gambit where you suffer small defeats but hope to ultimately take the field?</p>
<p>I ask because I am thinking of someone who &#8220;plays to win&#8221; in another field entirely. I&#8217;m not a competitive gamer, though I find the field interesting. I was a competitive &#8220;action&#8221; shooter until money troubles made it impractical to &#8220;play to win.&#8221; (And will be again, I might add) Brian Enos, the father of modern action pistol shooting, would do goofy things that everyone considered foolish. Instead of holding the pistol the &#8220;best&#8221; way, he would arbitrarily try anything that came to mind during practice.</p>
<p>He, Rob Leatham, and other like thinking friends took the action pistol game by storm. They laid waste to &#8220;the way things are&#8221; and turned things upside down. I relate this because he didn&#8217;t do these things simply to enjoy shooting more, he was also playing to win.</p>
<p>As a side note, I find very little difference in mindset between winners in various competitions. The only biggie I&#8217;ve encountered is that sports like action shooting often benefit from a great deal of thought beforehand and no thought in the &#8220;doing.&#8221; Thinking in the middle of an IDPA or IPSC stage means you are going slow. You should already know what to do, how to do it, and how to react if you screw it up, before you step up to the line. I believe this is because the game is extremely fast and you don&#8217;t directly compete against another person. They post their time, you post yours. The opponent is distilled out of your performance; you can still lose but you don&#8217;t fight anyone directly. In video games, it&#8217;s mano e mano. Quick, creative thinking can make the difference.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Defining Cheesy - Page 3 - Librarium Online</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-172920</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-172920</guid>
					<description>[...] Before I begin the reply I'd like to requote a part of my previous post you didn't reply to and make something clear: &amp;#34; In addition I'd like to point out something not brought up in my previous posts. The very best WAAC players are the ones that also play some games just to have fun as well. (again this is inspired by the articles by Dave Sirlin) In a quick summation of the linked article the main reasons why WAAC players will also play just for fun are: - Research. If you only ever play the safe option you'll never know if it's worth taking the risk at the right time. Likewise if you dedicate yourself to playing one way you might never find out there's a better way to be playing. Playing just for fun allows you to test new ideas in an environment where there's no risk.  - Limited local player pool. Sure, in your area you might be a class above everyone else, but if you constantly demolish everyone then that's going to wear down even the most adamant 'just for fun' player. If the only options available to you are: A.) demolish everyone once and then no one wants to play you again or B.) play for fun and keep playing week in and week out, bring out the big guns only when needed. then obviously B.) is the only real option. &amp;#34;  To make things clear:  I am not advocating playing to win at all times. I am not saying it's ok to agree to go for a friendly game yet take out your uber-army of doooooooom and domintate them. I'm advocating that playing to win is not intrinsically a bad thing. I'm advocating that players that dedicate themselves to playing to win, tend to be, on average, better players than players that don't.   Quote: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Before I begin the reply I&#8217;d like to requote a part of my previous post you didn&#8217;t reply to and make something clear: &quot; In addition I&#8217;d like to point out something not brought up in my previous posts. The very best WAAC players are the ones that also play some games just to have fun as well. (again this is inspired by the articles by Dave Sirlin) In a quick summation of the linked article the main reasons why WAAC players will also play just for fun are: - Research. If you only ever play the safe option you&#8217;ll never know if it&#8217;s worth taking the risk at the right time. Likewise if you dedicate yourself to playing one way you might never find out there&#8217;s a better way to be playing. Playing just for fun allows you to test new ideas in an environment where there&#8217;s no risk.  - Limited local player pool. Sure, in your area you might be a class above everyone else, but if you constantly demolish everyone then that&#8217;s going to wear down even the most adamant &#8216;just for fun&#8217; player. If the only options available to you are: A.) demolish everyone once and then no one wants to play you again or B.) play for fun and keep playing week in and week out, bring out the big guns only when needed. then obviously B.) is the only real option. &quot;  To make things clear:  I am not advocating playing to win at all times. I am not saying it&#8217;s ok to agree to go for a friendly game yet take out your uber-army of doooooooom and domintate them. I&#8217;m advocating that playing to win is not intrinsically a bad thing. I&#8217;m advocating that players that dedicate themselves to playing to win, tend to be, on average, better players than players that don&#8217;t.   Quote: [&#8230;]
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Defining Cheesy - Page 2 - Librarium Online</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-172456</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-172456</guid>
					<description>[...] Now i personally hate 40k but this is a example or truth growth of WAAC players, i have two dwarf gunline players in my local GW, no the funny thing is they both player 40k which they claim is more tactical, one uses a Imperial guard tank company, one uses a orc army with lots of tanks, i dont know about you but i dont see the growth in playing style. Perhaps the problem is that so many people dont get fanatsy and play it likes its 40k?    There's no denying there's not much difference in style there. However if that's a style that they can win the majority of their games with then there's not much pressure on them to change their style. However the beauty of Warhammer is that with the infinate variety between armies and regular changes in army rules, it probably wont be long till someone figures out a way to beat those armies. And when that happens you'll have the true test for a player. Someone playing just for fun will accept defeat, but probably continue playing the same army the same way because that's how they like it, and that's fine because as long as they have fun their goal is met. Someone who plays to win will now have the challenge of figuring out how to beat the new army and that's what someone of the WAAC mentality enjoys: A challenge. Someone who cries 'cheap/beard/etc.' is just making an excuse to try and sooth their ego. They wont accept they got beat fair and square and as such will dismiss it. They wont change, they wont improve, but they'll continue to think that they are playing to win, in their mind they'll think they're better than the player that beat them. The very 'rules' they devised and adhere to will hold them back from being the player they think they are.   --------------------   In addition I'd like to point out something not brought up in my previous posts. The very best WAAC players are the ones that also play some games just to have fun as well. (again this is inspired by the articles by Dave Sirlin) In a quick summation of the linked article the main reasons why WAAC players will also play just for fun are: - Research. If you only ever play the safe option you'll never know if it's worth taking the risk at the right time. Likewise if you dedicate yourself to playing one way you might never find out there's a better way to be playing. Playing just for fun allows you to test new ideas in an environment where there's no risk.  - Limited local player pool. Sure, in your area you might be a class above everyone else, but if you constantly demolish everyone then that's going to wear down even the most adamant 'just for fun' player. If the only options available to you are: A.) demolish everyone once and then no one wants to play you again or B.) play for fun and keep playing week in and week out, bring out the big guns only when needed. then obviously B.) is the only real option.  __________________ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Now i personally hate 40k but this is a example or truth growth of WAAC players, i have two dwarf gunline players in my local GW, no the funny thing is they both player 40k which they claim is more tactical, one uses a Imperial guard tank company, one uses a orc army with lots of tanks, i dont know about you but i dont see the growth in playing style. Perhaps the problem is that so many people dont get fanatsy and play it likes its 40k?    There&#8217;s no denying there&#8217;s not much difference in style there. However if that&#8217;s a style that they can win the majority of their games with then there&#8217;s not much pressure on them to change their style. However the beauty of Warhammer is that with the infinate variety between armies and regular changes in army rules, it probably wont be long till someone figures out a way to beat those armies. And when that happens you&#8217;ll have the true test for a player. Someone playing just for fun will accept defeat, but probably continue playing the same army the same way because that&#8217;s how they like it, and that&#8217;s fine because as long as they have fun their goal is met. Someone who plays to win will now have the challenge of figuring out how to beat the new army and that&#8217;s what someone of the WAAC mentality enjoys: A challenge. Someone who cries &#8216;cheap/beard/etc.&#8217; is just making an excuse to try and sooth their ego. They wont accept they got beat fair and square and as such will dismiss it. They wont change, they wont improve, but they&#8217;ll continue to think that they are playing to win, in their mind they&#8217;ll think they&#8217;re better than the player that beat them. The very &#8216;rules&#8217; they devised and adhere to will hold them back from being the player they think they are.   &#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;   In addition I&#8217;d like to point out something not brought up in my previous posts. The very best WAAC players are the ones that also play some games just to have fun as well. (again this is inspired by the articles by Dave Sirlin) In a quick summation of the linked article the main reasons why WAAC players will also play just for fun are: - Research. If you only ever play the safe option you&#8217;ll never know if it&#8217;s worth taking the risk at the right time. Likewise if you dedicate yourself to playing one way you might never find out there&#8217;s a better way to be playing. Playing just for fun allows you to test new ideas in an environment where there&#8217;s no risk.  - Limited local player pool. Sure, in your area you might be a class above everyone else, but if you constantly demolish everyone then that&#8217;s going to wear down even the most adamant &#8216;just for fun&#8217; player. If the only options available to you are: A.) demolish everyone once and then no one wants to play you again or B.) play for fun and keep playing week in and week out, bring out the big guns only when needed. then obviously B.) is the only real option.  __________________ [&#8230;]
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Haay</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-45723</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-45723</guid>
					<description>Interesting article. I can see these two viewpoints returning between me and a good friend of mine. He always plays his games one way, and tries to perfect that one style. For example in Diablo 2 he only played the Paladin. In StarCraft he only played the Terrans. In Supreme Commander he only plays UEF. It's his style, and it helps him to get good in the chosen character or side. Contrary to him, I like to vary in my games. I played all characters in Diablo 2, but never got any of them to beat Diablo in Hell level. I played all factions in StarCraft and I play all sides in Supreme Commander. I like to try different ways, different styles, different moves. But I never become very good in any of them. Not surprisingly my friend is better in RTS games than I am. In real life he is also a good manager while I am more of a specialist in my field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article. I can see these two viewpoints returning between me and a good friend of mine. He always plays his games one way, and tries to perfect that one style. For example in Diablo 2 he only played the Paladin. In StarCraft he only played the Terrans. In Supreme Commander he only plays UEF. It&#8217;s his style, and it helps him to get good in the chosen character or side. Contrary to him, I like to vary in my games. I played all characters in Diablo 2, but never got any of them to beat Diablo in Hell level. I played all factions in StarCraft and I play all sides in Supreme Commander. I like to try different ways, different styles, different moves. But I never become very good in any of them. Not surprisingly my friend is better in RTS games than I am. In real life he is also a good manager while I am more of a specialist in my field.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: eric</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-27436</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 20:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-27436</guid>
					<description>... among the 16 Large ones of the Continent in eighth of finale of the League of the Champions of football... Sunday December 3, 2006 to 17:43:: Football no comment:: no trackback 
... Christmas Football Euro 2008 Leagues of the video champions logo Zidane plays... no comment:: no trackback. Repurchase of credit. By Euro 2008 Football champions fans credit, Tuesday 2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; among the 16 Large ones of the Continent in eighth of finale of the League of the Champions of football&#8230; Sunday December 3, 2006 to 17:43:: Football no comment:: no trackback<br />
&#8230; Christmas Football Euro 2008 Leagues of the video champions logo Zidane plays&#8230; no comment:: no trackback. Repurchase of credit. By Euro 2008 Football champions fans credit, Tuesday 2
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: NorrYtt</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-5859</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-5859</guid>
					<description>I can see this article's premise, and it reminds me of a discovery I made.

After basically mastering Super Punch-Out!! for SNES, I was waltzing all over the bosses, when I decided to play berserk-style to the point of suboptimality 'for fun'. The last boss Nick Bruiser will back up and leap on you with an auto-KO attack that breaks blocking and interrupts punches. Totally suicidal, I throw a super uppercut thinking the lag will kill me, and to my amazement the move him caught him in a vulnerable frame for an auto KO! With this new knowledge, now I can KO even the last boss out of his super in a time attack. Super easy game, but it looks cool to my friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see this article&#8217;s premise, and it reminds me of a discovery I made.</p>
<p>After basically mastering Super Punch-Out!! for SNES, I was waltzing all over the bosses, when I decided to play berserk-style to the point of suboptimality &#8216;for fun&#8217;. The last boss Nick Bruiser will back up and leap on you with an auto-KO attack that breaks blocking and interrupts punches. Totally suicidal, I throw a super uppercut thinking the lag will kill me, and to my amazement the move him caught him in a vulnerable frame for an auto KO! With this new knowledge, now I can KO even the last boss out of his super in a time attack. Super easy game, but it looks cool to my friends.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: hkrok76</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-4137</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-4137</guid>
					<description>I think he said other players used new and fun characters while the winner used the proven ones. Cheating isn't a valid way to win, and I don't think any of the articles ever said it was. Exploits, bugs, and game nuances aren't cheating. They can be deemed so by the community or tournament committee, but until then, they are legal ways of playing. Cheating is using hacks. If it's in the game, use it, as long as it is legal in the tournament you're playing. If it's for casuals, use it anyway. If people complain, bam, scrub. You don't have to call it on them, just know. You can choose to tone down your play, but that just means it'll be harder for you to get better.  If you don't want to play to win either, then don't use high level tactics. Be content in playing for fun and not at your full capacity. Not everyone wants to improve in fighting games, just don't feel ashamed or embarassed for trying to improve yourself. Someone telling you that you're &quot;cheap&quot; or cheating, or have no skills because you're using things that they can't do is only done to keep you from feeling good about winning. That is the worst thing anyone can do to anyone when playing a competitive game, imho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think he said other players used new and fun characters while the winner used the proven ones. Cheating isn&#8217;t a valid way to win, and I don&#8217;t think any of the articles ever said it was. Exploits, bugs, and game nuances aren&#8217;t cheating. They can be deemed so by the community or tournament committee, but until then, they are legal ways of playing. Cheating is using hacks. If it&#8217;s in the game, use it, as long as it is legal in the tournament you&#8217;re playing. If it&#8217;s for casuals, use it anyway. If people complain, bam, scrub. You don&#8217;t have to call it on them, just know. You can choose to tone down your play, but that just means it&#8217;ll be harder for you to get better.  If you don&#8217;t want to play to win either, then don&#8217;t use high level tactics. Be content in playing for fun and not at your full capacity. Not everyone wants to improve in fighting games, just don&#8217;t feel ashamed or embarassed for trying to improve yourself. Someone telling you that you&#8217;re &#8220;cheap&#8221; or cheating, or have no skills because you&#8217;re using things that they can&#8217;t do is only done to keep you from feeling good about winning. That is the worst thing anyone can do to anyone when playing a competitive game, imho.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Tai</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-3606</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 04:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-3606</guid>
					<description>You just contradicted yourself in the end didn't you?  That player could or could not have been exploring the game in itself with new and fun characters, and yet he still won with the same old combination of top tiers, and broken characters.  I Suppose the characters with the most potential had already been discovered and he jsut went with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You just contradicted yourself in the end didn&#8217;t you?  That player could or could not have been exploring the game in itself with new and fun characters, and yet he still won with the same old combination of top tiers, and broken characters.  I Suppose the characters with the most potential had already been discovered and he jsut went with that.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Ikaruga</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-3388</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 00:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-3388</guid>
					<description>You've pretty much articulated my ideas about variety in games, and uncovered one of my biggest peeves: players who aren't willing to try anything new.

The saddest part is, if more players were willing to explore new tactics, they would probably find ways to deal with things such as &quot;camping&quot; that are claimed to dominate games. And often... those same players who aren't willing to put up with things like &quot;camping&quot; are the same ones who want to win by simply strolling around a map, running and gunning.

Of course... sometimes it is difficult to stand in the face of whatever is deemed &quot;conventional&quot;, especially if you've got a lot of players in your chosen game. Sometimes a tactic IS difficult to counter, and must be dealt with accordingly, but requires the effort of your whole team instead of just 2 players out of 10. This can create the illusion of a good tactic failing... when in fact it is succeeding, just not on a large enough scale to &quot;win the war&quot;.

And it can be especially hard to get players to cooperate if there are 16 or more of them, and the game of choice is a &quot;join in progress&quot; type game. Those tend to be full of antisocial folks who have no interest in teamplay at all (yet, somehow aren't above complaining about things that they feel are &quot;unfair&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve pretty much articulated my ideas about variety in games, and uncovered one of my biggest peeves: players who aren&#8217;t willing to try anything new.</p>
<p>The saddest part is, if more players were willing to explore new tactics, they would probably find ways to deal with things such as &#8220;camping&#8221; that are claimed to dominate games. And often&#8230; those same players who aren&#8217;t willing to put up with things like &#8220;camping&#8221; are the same ones who want to win by simply strolling around a map, running and gunning.</p>
<p>Of course&#8230; sometimes it is difficult to stand in the face of whatever is deemed &#8220;conventional&#8221;, especially if you&#8217;ve got a lot of players in your chosen game. Sometimes a tactic IS difficult to counter, and must be dealt with accordingly, but requires the effort of your whole team instead of just 2 players out of 10. This can create the illusion of a good tactic failing&#8230; when in fact it is succeeding, just not on a large enough scale to &#8220;win the war&#8221;.</p>
<p>And it can be especially hard to get players to cooperate if there are 16 or more of them, and the game of choice is a &#8220;join in progress&#8221; type game. Those tend to be full of antisocial folks who have no interest in teamplay at all (yet, somehow aren&#8217;t above complaining about things that they feel are &#8220;unfair&#8221;).
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Duge</title>
		<link>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-2490</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/#comment-2490</guid>
					<description>Much better then the second article, not as good as the first still.  Useful information at least in this one. Thanks Sirlin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much better then the second article, not as good as the first still.  Useful information at least in this one. Thanks Sirlin.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
