SSF2T HD Remix, Part 12: Guile
This article is reprinted with permission from Capcom Unity.
Guile is a solid mid-tier character in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo (ST), but it takes quite a bit of player-skill for him to fulfill that potential. As a mid-tier character, he’s eligible for a few upgrades, especially in his bad matchups. More than that, he’s eligible for some fun.
Crazy New Flash Kick
Guile’s roundhouse flash kick goes straight up very high in ST, and has no use I’m aware of. I’ve never seen a good US or Japanese Guile player use it in a real match, so it’s a ripe place for some new spice. Instead of traveling straight up, it now travels very far forward and diagonally up just a bit.
Guile players salivate at this newfound range, but it comes with a price. Great flash kicks come with great recovery. If blocked, it’s the most vulnerable move in the game. A fierce Dragon Punch is pretty vulnerable if you block it too, but Guile’s roundhouse flash kick leaves him pushed right up against you so that it’s very easy to time a combo as he recovers.
The new flash kick means you can’t jump straight up and down at mid-range versus him anymore. He can use it as an escape if you try to cross him up. He can use it to trade or even clean hit Dhalsim’s Yoga Fire and Sagat’s Low Tiger at mid-range. He can use it easily hit Vega’s slide, while his old flash kicks often missed in that situation.
Vega was a very bad match for Guile before, and a lot of it had to do with how hard it is to counter Vega’s slide. It’s good news that he now has a better answer. Sagat was a very tough mach as well, though not so much anymore due to Sagat’s slightly worse fireball recovery. The change in Sagat’s fireball recovery combined with Guile’s new roundhouse flash kick might give Guile the advantage now, but that remains to be seen. Guile’s worst match was probably versus Dhalsim, so his ability to do *something* at mid-range now combined with Dhalsim’s inability to low punch cleanly under Sonic Booms brings this match from near-hopeless to near-fair. Blanka is still a tough match for Guile. You can’t win ‘em all.
Upside-Down Kick
The upside down kick (hold toward or away + roundhouse while close) always looked like an overhead attack…and now it finally is. The opponent now must block this move high. In addition, you can now also activate it from any range by holding toward + roundhouse (it still has really long range). This kick had 15 frames of startup in ST, which would make it the fastest (and longest range) overhead in the game. I slowed it down to 20 frame startup which puts 2 frames slower than the slowest overhead in the game (Fei Long’s).
Guile is such a defensive character that it’s a breath of fresh air to have a new offensive option. The opponent really should be able to block this overhead most of the time, but Guile can tack it on after making the opponent block a Sonic Boom almost any time he wants, as long as he’s willing to lose his charge. (You have to be pretty close to get the overhead to come out when you’re holding back, remember.)
I also had to monkey with the hitbox below Guile during this move. After the first pass, we realized that he could cleanly upside down kick over Sagat’s Low Tiger Shots every single time on reaction. It was a bit too crazy for me, so now those Low Tigers will hit Guile in this situation. There’s still a very tiny window where Guile can go over the Tiger Shot cleanly, but it’s impractical to do in a real match. Also note that even though Guile appears to be off the ground during this move, he can still be thrown. I didn’t change that; it was true in ST also.
Super
Guile’s super move fails to connect correctly all the time in ST. It took about four tries to fix this, but it finally works as it seems like it always should have. The super move consists of two consecutive flash kicks, and the second one has a bit more range now. All the hits also knock down and juggle now, and I even had to do some subtlety about changing how fast the enemy falls when he’s hit by this move. You won’t notice that, but without it, the super would miss air juggle hits on certain characters only. Vega was one of those characters, but now Vega gets juggled like everyone else.
In equally big news, there’s now an optional new motion to perform the super. You can still do the old motion, but the new one is hell of a lot more practical: charge down/back, then down, down/forward, forward, up/forward. In other words, charge down/back, then do the old Tiger Knee motion + kick. Ironically, I removed all other Tiger Knee motions, but it seemed appropriate here considering how complicated the old motion was. (The old motion could be performed charge db, df, ub OR charge db, df, db, any up.)
You might ask, “Won’t I get the super to come out accidentally?” I have never had this happen even once, so I don’t think so. You might also worry that Guile can now easily combo into this super. For the most part, comboing normal moves into supers is not practical in ST (yes, I know you can do it). We could have made it very easy for everyone to combo normals into supers, but the lack of this feature is, in my opinion, one of the nice and defining qualities of the SF2 series. It’s not about poking with safe attacks and comboing into a super. Supers are, for the most part, an additional move in your arsenal rather than a combo ender.
So doesn’t Guile break this rule by easily comboing low strong into super with his new motion? You’d think so, but some deep mysterious property of ST’s engine saves us. I cannot figure why this is true, but you cannot combo normal attacks into Guile’s super using this new motion. If you try, you will always get a flash kick instead. Even more deeply mysterious is that if you try to combo a normal move into super using the old, difficult motion, you CAN. This really should be true, but somehow it is. So combing into super is no easier or more difficult than it ever was for Guile. We may never know why.
Things That Didn’t Change
One of the most common requests from players was to change around the commands of Guile’s standing kicks. In ST (and HD Remix), the kicks are:
• Back + short = knee (advances Guile while charging)
• Back + medium kick = backward sobat (Guile jumps slightly off the ground and moves back while kicking)
• Back + roundhouse = lunging kick (Guiles moves forward a bit while charging and kicks)
The common request is to find some way to make back + short into Old Guile’s rapid fire kicks. This would allow Guile to rapidly standing short to stop incoming slides while keeping his charge. I admit, this would be useful against Blanka, and Blanka is a bad match for Guile, but we can’t fix everything. The new roundhouse flash kick hits the other slides anyway.
More to the point though, no one could ever agree on which move Guile should lose of the above three. The knee is incredibly useful and basic to his gameplay, so that needs to stay for sure. The back sobat is not used much by most players, but the experts find it indispensable because of a few important, specific things it counters (Dhalsim’s drill at a certain range is one, and there are others). And Guile players were not willing to lose the back + roundhouse lunge kick either. Rather than assign the knee to back + jab + short (strange for a normal move), I just left all those kicks as-is.
I hope Guile players won’t complain about that, because with a huge new flash kick, a long range overhead kick, and an easier, better super, Guile players should thank their lucky stars.
–Sirlin
May 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
I’m curious about the new Super motion. How come it ends in up/forward? Isn’t it easy to accidently jump instead of pulling off the move?
Regardless, THANK YOU for making that Super easier to do! The old one is inhumanly difficult for me.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Same goes with Flash kick though. Thusly it’s appropriate to end the motion with up. Compared to the orginal motion, this seems pretty forgiving!
horiztonal flash kick sounds crazy stupid good. Its something that both scares and excites me. Though I’m sure thats a change that many of top players testing the game will be eager to try and break it, so I doubt it’ll go unnoticed if it’s too good.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Small but nice upgrades I think.
The new upsidedown kick sounds nice, is the close version still there, if so, is that slowed down to?
The only thing i dont really understand is the new super motion, why remove all tiger knee motions becasue they where to hard and the give Guile one?
Why not give him the same super motion as the other charge-characters instead, with the add on that he has to charge down/back instead of just back. That way there will be no accidental jumping.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Oh good. I tried to play Guile once, discovered that I couldn’t pull his super off with any regularity, and dropped him like a hot potato. Maybe he’ll be more fun now :-P
May 10th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Damnit, Sirlin, stop using “forward” when you mean “toward” :P
On the Capcom blog, Majestos (THAT Guile scientist, see his website) posted this comment:
“Wow, that’s a lot of changes. Upside down kick is kind of a really good move. If i had that in CvS2, i’d use it all the time. Changing the motion to F+HK is way more important than making it an overhead.
How sure are you that Guile can’t combo into super using the new command? Your (lack of) evidence sounds kinda flimsy. Have you tried charge DB, D, DF+MP, F, UF+K? Hold down MP if you keep getting accidental Sonic Boom.
Also i’m 99% sure that you’re wrong about charge DB, DF, UB+K working in STLD.
Also the real command is: Charge D, F, B, U+K. You can charge DB but you can’t charge DF.
- Maj
sonichurricane.com”
and Seth Killian replied with:
“Hey Maj,
The super motion as described in the article is apparently confirmed by internal tests and looking directly at the code.
As for comboing into the super, holding down MP would prevent a sonic boom, but the issue is that you get a regular flash kick, not a sonic boom.
best,
Seth”
I think it’s good to have these posts added to the discussion.
May 10th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
I;m not happy about the guile super, i personally rarely used it, because it was so hard to do, that i had to think 2 seconds before i want to do it, even if i have it charged, and like 20% i couldn’t do it right, the new motion doesn’t help either, i would prefer
charge down, up,down,up, or charge down/back,down, forward.
and i would prefer something even easier, but if you insist that it will make it too powerfull…
i really like your new”easier commands” aproach, that was a barrier that never let me completly enjoy the game, and much less introduce other players to the game, but don’t know why you are doing it half way.
it’s really that it would make some moves too powerfull?
i’m just an amateur Street fighter player, because here in argentina there are no tournaments, competition or whatever, so i just play against my friends, i don’t feel like be hours of practing to do certain moves, mainly because i feel so dumb, i would like to play a game about execution i would play pump it up/dance dance revolution, or some stuff like that, beter yet, i would go to play tennis.
May 10th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
“Same goes with Flash kick though. Thusly it’s appropriate to end the motion with up.”
The Flash Kick is a lot easier to time, since you just go from crouching to pressing up and kick at the same time. The problem with the Tiger Knee motion is that since you have to press the button at the same time as up/forward, it’s easy to accidently press it too early. And of course, there’s less leeway to press the button than the other motions since you end up jumping in a few frames.
If you accidently end the motion with up instead of up/forward, do you still get the move?
May 11th, 2008 at 12:27 am
When you get to actually play the game, I’m pretty sure all this complaining about the super motion will stop. It’s extremely easy. No, you do not want it to be down, up, down up. And it’s easier than other tiger knees because you’re charged (sitting there stationary) when you try for it, as opposed to ST Cammy or Fei Long where you’re moving around and trying to trying to do it. Finally, flash kick (non-super) ends with an up command but it comes out easily with Guile (maybe he has more startup jump frames than other characters, but in any case, doing flash kick is pretty easy without jumping). Really, if you just try this, I doubt you’ll have any problem at all.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Sounds good to me. It’s still a million times easier than the old motion, and it’s way faster to perform than most Supers.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:35 am
I just fired up MAME to test the super command as charge db, df, ub + K and not only does it work, I find it a million times easier than db, df, db, u+K. In fact I’d probably prefer it to the HD move, so thanks for leaving both options in.
Rather offtopic, but just something I was thinking of this morning: Is anything changed about what happens when two characters throw each other at the same time? In ST the person who gets the throw is random, I believe, which isn’t really ideal. (you could say this has to do with Guile because, uhm, he throws a lot?? :P)
May 11th, 2008 at 1:52 am
ALSO: Any changes to Guile’s voice? Option to have the old tough-guy WW voice where he doesn’t sound like he’s on helium?
May 11th, 2008 at 2:43 am
It’s (probably) not up to Sirlin to give Guile back his “manly” voice, although many people have suggested it on the SRK fora and I’m sure Sirlin and Seth have done what they can about it.
There’s also that idea for the Pause-Super Nintendo sound…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZRa-5D7vmc
May 12th, 2008 at 8:23 am
I will still be using the OLD super for HD Remix (thanks for letting us keep it), yay for the hit increase on that, makes it more dependable for damage.
Forward FK? Sex man, pure sex. And an overhead? With range? Damn, Ryu will fall!
May 12th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Hey Sirlin,
Maybe I am way too tired but why not make the super just charge b,f,b,f+k? I mean that is acceptable for Balrog, Blanka, Bison, Chun Li, Dee Jay and Honda… I admit those all move forward so the command makes more sense. Perhaps it was a convention sort of thing where if you gave it to Guile you would need to do the same for Vega and that might be “too good” in his case or I am not thinking this through enough due to tired eyes.
Here is another odd question, did anyone suggest one of his throws not swap sides if performed while holding BACK to allow him to keep charge? I am not suggesting it because controlling the opponent position with the throws is key but I was curious.
Also I am really bummed hand cuffs did not make it back… sad day :)
thanks,
e
May 12th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
you already know you gotta change the voice right?
May 12th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
This might be a beginner’s question, but how come ST guile’s flash kick has no use in competitive play? Isn’t it used for anti-air (and reversal) occasions? I mean, sure, guile can always do crouching fierce, which works fine, but quite often trades. But if you happen to have a flash kick charged, then it’s always a better antiair option than crouching fierce, isn’t it? Does it have something to do with sonic boom’s recovery speed, which allows you to throw one and still be pretty much safe from jump-in attacks?
May 13th, 2008 at 1:21 am
I’m pretty sure he will have a different voice. It would be pretty silly if they got all new shiny graphics, but still kept the crappy cps2 sound effects. If they really wanted to they could probably even use the cvs2 voice acting and get away with it since all the SSF2T cast is in that game.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:44 am
This might be a beginner’s question, but how come ST guile’s flash kick has no use in competitive play? Isn’t it used for anti-air (and reversal) occasions? I mean, sure, guile can always do crouching fierce, which works fine, but quite often trades. But if you happen to have a flash kick charged, then it’s always a better antiair option than crouching fierce, isn’t it? Does it have something to do with sonic boom’s recovery speed, which allows you to throw one and still be pretty much safe from jump-in attacks?
I like the new changes though. Very nice stuff indeed.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:49 am
It’s the roundhouse Flash Kick that’s never used. The short and forward ones are definitely integral to his gameplay.
May 13th, 2008 at 4:47 am
I think it’s great that Sirlin notices how Roundhouse Flash Kick is not used: the kind of observations only expert players could make. I myself always thought the roundhouse version did more damage (like in CvS2), so I always used that one. I’ve recently switched to the Short kick version so that I land faster, giving more time to start chucking Sonic Booms faster. Are there any other reasons why to use the Short version, like better priority?
@Higher Jin: CvS2 does not have T.Hawk, DeeJay and Fei Long, but they’re in the (home console) versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 ;)
May 13th, 2008 at 10:45 am
To me it it seems like the mysterious inputs around strong and the super are related to a possible handcuff fix. The handcuffs were done with a very similar motion and they might have gone in and done some specific changes. It might be an old old fix left over from world warrior days.
Just an idea.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
This sounds fun. Guile was one of my better characters at one time, but his ultra defensiveness wasn’t my style. Now with just a couple of tweaks he sounds fresh again. I like it.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Please remove his close kicks, or atleast make is so he has to be even closer to get them. Now you very often wiff an upside-down kick when trying to followup a sonic boom with far RH.
Also, close neutral RH is completly useless.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:27 am
The changes are fine to me. I personally liked to have a slight reduction on charging times, but I understand that would be too damned broken…
And the Super’s inputs (new and old) are perfect! Do not dare to change this Sirlin, especially the “bug” of the new command!
May 16th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I think the upside down kick is going to add a huge mix up game when guile starts to follow his booms. You could throw a jab sonic boom, and walk behind it, and you can do a low forward (hits low), the overhead upside down kick (hits overhead now), wait for it to hit and do a tick throw, wait till it gets neutralized by an enemy fireball and do a towards + fierce while the enemy recovers, or wait for them to jump over (or strait up) and do a crouching fierce (beats or trades with most jump ins). Jumping back will just delay this set up, or the opponent might fall on the sonic boom. He doesn’t need to risk jumping in to hit a crouching opponent, and with a lack of an instant overhead, this more then compensates.
And the super wasn’t that hard to do in the first place. It was basically charge down/back, and do a reverse tiger knee. Now its just charge down/back, to regular tiger knee. Not too much of a change, but if you say its “[a] hell of a lot more practical” then I’ll believe you.
May 17th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Just like Kurt, I look forward to using the overhead to increase Guile’s offensive repertoire. I am concerned about the 20 frame speed, for that is 0.33 seconds, quite a bit slower than the average reaction time (and can’t people always block Fei Long’s overhead on reaction?). Maybe my theory doesn’t count when played in action, though.
May 18th, 2008 at 8:37 am
“…or that is 0.33 seconds, quite a bit slower than the average reaction time (and can’t people always block Fei Long’s overhead on reaction?)”
Human choice reactions for visual cues are around 380 ms - so it’s not really reaction blockable.
May 18th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Now that is interesting!
May 18th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I think you’re right that the average human reaction time is too slow… but I don’t think average matters here. Fighting game players with a good amount of practice can decrease that number without too much difficulty. I’ve always hard, the real top fighting game players tend to be able to react in as few as 15 frames. 20 is usually possible for anyone who’s practiced a decent amount, and knows exactly what to watch for. (And if you’re applying yomi well, then you don’t even necessarily need good reactions to win)
May 18th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
*heard
May 18th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Yeah, if reaction was so important, some of us wouldn’t do anything :P
As Claytus said, 380 ms is only the average reaction of an untrained eye. If you know what options Guile has after a SB, you can reduce that significantly. And if you can predict well, then it’s even less important. The Guile player can apply Yomi, too, though ;)
May 18th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Single-choice reactions are much faster — on the order of 180 ms, so if the overhead is the only mix-up then a player migth well be able to block it on reaction. Looking around at www.shoryuken.com I haven’t seen a whole lot that suggests that peole react more quickly than that, but, rather that technical player skill comes into play in the form of yomi, option-select type techniques, and methods for moving things into single choice reactions from multi-choice reactions.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Its not so much reaction, but its planning. Being a good guesser and figuring out attack patterns is a better way to keep you safe then just reacting to visual cues.
May 26th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Sirlin said: “The common request is to find some way to make back + short into Old Guile’s rapid fire kick.”
What about changing the lunging knee to down-back + short?
Obviously, this would make a flash kick immdediately after a lunging knee feasible, which might be a bad thing. . . .
May 29th, 2008 at 3:11 am
SF4 will hit the PC!
put SF:HD on Steam too!! :D
June 1st, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Guile is the only character not to see a new special move since world warrior! Time for an upgrade. I always thought he should have an army roll of some sort. Maybe one that goes through fireballs on start up animation like boxers headbutt and performed with BF + kick.
This will help him against non-charge fireball characters and allow him to advance on screen while storing a charge when he performs the move.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:49 am
I have nothing to say about super street fighter but have you ever thought about making cap vs snk 2 available for 360 live market place so we can all throw down please were all waiting for that ps,
or have you thought about making marvel vs cap 2 live with a bridge Id pay extra to play it live
well thanks for the new super streetfighter it will kick ass
xbox live redog81 gamertag
June 18th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Hey Sirlin,
This game looks really good. Congratulations on getting all of this done. But please, for the love of God, change Guile’s voice back to how he’s supposed to sound, which would NOT be like how he sounds in SSF2T. I mean, seriously, I would not buy this game if you did all of this work and STILL kept his “girly man” voice.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Mr. Sirlin,
How are things going with production? I haven’t seen any new articles/updates from you on SSF2T-HDR. Nor have I seen any new pictures or footage posted on the web. I was just wondering how things were going?
Also, I was wondering what you thought about the 16 character line up in SF4.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
I DO think the random throw tiebreaker is kinda stupid.
My suggestion follows. It’s not very simple, but it IS balanced, I believe. :)
Break throw ties by the following methods:
1) The person with less life gets the throw. Make ticking easier when behind then ahead, unless you outrange your opponent, which all good tickers do anyway. :) This will uually be what happens.
2) Failing that, the player who got thrown last that match gets the throw. You win with a throw, then the other person gets to open with the throw. This will not be uncommon with throw happy players.
3) Failing that, give super throws priority, then command throws. The more difficult a throw is to enter, the better priority it should have. Can happen some at the start of a match.
4) Failing that, give Zangief the throw. :) Throwing is his schtick, and he deserves a little extra throw priority. Can happen at the start.
5) Failing that, the person with the smaller throw range gets the throw. If the person is too silly to out range the counter thrower in this case, the other person deserves two frames to throw. Can still happen at the start, if it’s not a mirror match.
6) failing that, break the tie randomly, because no other fair tiebreak is possible. (this can only happen for the first throw of the match with characters with idenntical throw ranges, if both life bars are equal)