SSF2T HD Remix, Part 9: Fei Long
This article is reprinted with permission from Capcom Unity.
Fei Long is usually considered one of the five worst characters in the original Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, but he’s still pretty deadly if he can get close to the opponent and get his offense going. The trouble is, it’s very hard for him to ever get close enough to most characters to get it going. Also, his Flying Kicks move (aka Dragon Kicks, aka “Chicken Wing”) is just too hard for most players (including myself) to physically execute. Unlike the other Tiger Knee-like moves, the Flying Kicks required you to start with *back* on the stick, then go down/back, down, down/forward, forward, up/forward + kick.
Fei Long, Version 1
In HD Remix, Fei Long, along with Akuma, have the notorious distinction of each being the best character in the game and the worst character in the game at various points throughout development. The changelist for HD Remix, version 1 was:
• Flying Kick move changed to qcf+k (easy!)
• Flying Kick with short button can go through fireballs during startup.
The control change immediately made him fun, and being able to do short Flying Kicks over fireballs easily seemed like just what he needed. Unfortunately, the rest of the cast was just too powerful relative to this. Fei Long seemed like the worst character, or close to it.
Fei Long, Version 2
Then came a ridiculous number of buffs. I was going to make Fei Long viable, damn it!
• All three version of Flying Kicks can go through fireballs at startup.
• All Rekka punches (qcf+p) travel farther.
• Super travels much farther, which also makes it safer on block because last hit doesn’t whiff so much
And this ease of use stuff:
• Flame Kick input window is bigger (easier) and not random
• Medium and roundhouse Flame Kicks always knock down and can juggle.
• Input window for second and third Rekka punches longer and not random.
Expert players who played this version said Fei Long was unquestionably #1. His Flying Kicks were too good at locking opponents down. Like in ST, they can combo in standing fierce, then all three Rekka punches. Ouch! His super became the best in the game and you could even juggle with a Flame Kick afterwards for a total of 90% damage. (Oops!) Also, you could get about 3 supers per round if you tried. You could also juggle Flame Kicks after Flying Kicks due to…well some technical stuff we won’t go into right now. And to top it all off, Fei Long could pretty much ignore fireballs and do the new qcf+k command to go through them on reaction, every time.
Incidentally, a lot of people requested that he be able to cancel his ducking medium kick into Rekka punches, but that is really the last thing he needs, as I hope you can see by now. Giving him that would be similar to SF3:3rd Strike Chun Li’s ducking medium kick into super. She can stick it out constantly and if it happens to hit, bam, super. In Fei Long’s case, he wouldn’t even need super meter to deal huge damage off his 3-Rekka series. What we need to do at this point is turn the knobs DOWN on Fei Long.
Fei Long, Version 3 (a.k.a version 20)
This is really more like Fei Long version 20 than version 3, but I’m compressing the story for readability. He’s now settled down into seemingly fair state.
Here’s the actual change list:
• Flying Kick move changed to qcf+k (easy!)
• Flying Kick with short button can go through fireballs during startup.
• Flying Kicks have 5 additional frames of recovery. This prevents you from comboing if you hit, and it also prevents you from trapping people by doing the move repeatedly.
• Flying Kicks have worse priority air-to-air during the first hit, so it’s easier to counter them with a jumping attack if you predict them.
• All version of Flame Kicks always knock down and can juggle. They *can* still juggle after you juggle with Flying Kicks, so have fun, combo-maniacs.
• Flame Kick input window is bigger (easier) and not random
• Rekka punch input window is bigger (easier) and not random
• Rekka punches travel a little farther, but not as far as in Version 2
• Super travels farther and faster (by a lot) but not as much as Version 2
• Super is now vulnerable at Fei Long’s head during 4th and 5th hits
• Super meter gains reduced on Flame Kicks and Flying Kicks
• Super knocks the opponent down too quickly for a Flame Kick to combo after
The farther reach on Rekka punches allows Fei Long to actually deal some block damage vs a defensive Honda. It also makes it a little easier to pressure a defensive Guile who mostly just sits there and does low forward and the occasional sonic boom. (Both of those matches are still hard for Fei Long though).
The Flying Kicks are easy to perform now, and still have many uses, but they cannot really be abused like they could in some situations before. The recovery time at the end prevents you from constantly looping Flying Kicks -> Fierce -> Flying Kicks, etc. I don’t want to give the impression this move is weak though. It still has 14 frames of invulnerable startup, it still juggles and travels in a useful arc, and it’s still an overhead attack (must be blocked high).
The short Flying Kick going through fireballs is a help, but not a total solution. The opponent can still back up and sweep you if he predicts this move, especially with extra recovery. But it’s at least one option to get around fireballs, rather than practically no option, as he had before. I think it was a real mistake when I let all three versions of this move go through fireballs on startup, because even if it were somehow fair, it goes too far in negating the power of projectiles in Super Turbo. It just felt wrong.
The super move is very useful and a key move for Fei Long now. To balance that out, he can no longer get so many per round and if the opponent does predict it and jump over you, he has at least some hope of hitting you back (for example, with Ken’s new longer-reaching Hurricane Kick from behind!).
Fei Long is much more fun now, partly because executing all his moves is easier, and partly because he’s generally juiced up. Longer reaching Rekkas and a longer reaching super give him even more offense, while the new short Flying Kick gives him a mild new way to get in.
--Sirlin
April 12th, 2008 at 6:43 am
I love these updates!
April 12th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Tell Capcom to let you update more
April 12th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Plz make all chars supers cancellables and when cancelled make less damage. Cammy can cancel jab jab jab into super.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Awesome. Thanks Sirlin. I imagined the changes would be something like this. I still think he should be able cancel another normal other than standing fierce, but I guess you’ve already tested those type of things and decided against it.
Thanks again, and I can’t wait to see the changes on the rest of the characters. I’m hoping for Akuma personally, since you are supposedly making him balanced enough to be used in tournaments. No matter what I’m sure it’ll be a great article, thanks for the update.
Peace
- Jin
April 12th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
The only problem with knowing how Akuma is going to be balanced is the fact that I’m going to miss playing around with the old akuma.
It was kinda fun to stop practicing with my regular guy and just go on a rampage.
April 12th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
any plans for a Steam release?
can’t wait to see the bottom tier characters emerge into the competitive scene :)
April 12th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
I think the extra 5 frames of recovery and less anti-air ability are good choices for the Chicken Wing
April 12th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Thanks Sirlin, this game will be great! The more i read on this blog (both about this game and your other articles) the more im convinced that your the best person for rebalancing this game. You seem to share the same view of game balance as me and you have tremendous knowledge of the game.
With Fei Long getting a nerf to his good meter filling ability its seems most abusable meter filling moves are tasken out.
Fei’s flame kick and flying kicks, Blankas back hopp and boxers TAP and headbutt now generate less meter. This was done because (correct me in wrong here) they gave the charachters either a fast safe way to gain super whenever they needed it or it gave them access to a really good super early in the game.
All this seems fine, since, well, it abusable.
But why wasn’t the shotos’s backwards jumping air hurricane kick nerfed in this whay? Ryu’s super is one of the best in the game, and to charge a full bar in just a couple of jumps seems abusable to me. This super is also very game changing against some other fireball characters, which is kind of nice and gives Ryu an edge in matchups he otherwise would have trouble with (Dhalsim, Sagat). But in these matches he should be able to gain meter by just keep throwing fireballs or DPing throgh their fire balls. Also, Ryu’s fake fireball should be a reallly good meter filling move since its so fast, just spam a couple of fake fireballs when opponent is at the other side of the screen.
April 12th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
*cheer*
I was hoping for just a tad more fireball evasion, but these changes sound great anyway. This game is gonna be awesome.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:20 am
It’s very difficult to judge these changes without playing but for the most part all the changes you describe sound good.
If you are still having issues with T. Hawk here is what I suggest:
1. Make his Condor dive not knock over on either hit or block, and the leave the players in an ambiguous situation where T. Hawk is just outside of SPD range assuming it hits at average height.
2. Make the bounceback on his SPD greater to get rid of his SPD repeat ticks.
3. Make the knockdown on his DP reliable.
4. Give his SPD slightly larger range.
5. Beef up a few of his normals like stand RH, low forward, low fierce, stand fierce and stand far strong.
I know you have already done some of these things, but not sure if you have tried that combination. I think there is a fundamental problem with T. Hawk in that he relies on repeat SPDs to win, and that tactic is either going to be too weak or too good because it’s so one dimensional.
Removing his throw loops while increasing throw range and beefing up normals would give him another dimension to his game.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:10 am
Sirlin, I’m curious if you know of any left handed competitors in evo or any other pro tournaments, and what inputs they use for their controls. I’m just starting to pick up fighters and am curious if lefties have better options.
Love what you’re doing with this game, really looking forward to the quarter match mode!
April 13th, 2008 at 2:33 am
People seem confused on some facts.
In ST, invulnerable startup of all 3 versions of Flying Kicks move: 14 fames. (Unthrowable, too.)
In HD Remix, 14 frames, same.. Incidentally, that’s crazily good and probably doesn’t deserve to be, but oh well.
5 frames additional recovery is the smallest increase that makes it not combo into stand fierce. When one Fei Long blocks the other’s Flying Kicks, then they both mash on standing jab, the attacker’s stand jab usually wins (hits first.)
If someone is cornered and having to deal with repeated Flying Kicks and they try to jump out, they are now in danger of getting hit by Flying Kicks + Flame Kick juggle (either deep 1-hit short version or 2-hit roundhouse version), and then knocked down in the corner, right where they started. Fei Long can do this new combo at midsceen also, usually when the opponent gets hit out of the air with Flying Kicks.
In ST, super -> flame kick is not a combo.
In HD Remix, super -> flame kick is not a combo.
In a temporary version of HD Remix that lasted one week, super -> flame kick was a combo.
When you compare lists of changes, comparing number of items in each list is clearly the wrong way to do it. How much does losing Flying Kicks -> Fierce matter vs Honda? How good is being able to force him to block 3 Rekka Punches at pretty long range and chipping him with a super from pretty long range? How bad is reduced meter gains (on a much better super) compared to having Rekka Punches that can reach Guile and a short Flying Kick that goes through his Sonic Boom? When you look at text lists of bullet points, you might be weighing those things equally, and they are not equal.
April 13th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Hey, I’ve been looking over the Kongai stuff, and I have to say, I’m really impressed! I’m highly looking forward to getting my hands on the beta, if I can, or the final version if I can’t.
I’m curious if you’ve ever played pokemon at a competitive level. Looking over the design document, it looks like it’ll fufill a lot of the same things I loved about playing pokemon competitively. And I’lkl probably end up using Tafari a whole lot, considering that I adored playing with Dugtrio in those games (arena trap FTW).
April 13th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
I’m loving the changes to Fei Long. While I certainly wouldn’t have minded Fei Long being totally broken like Version 2 (not really, though), the changes he has right now seem like enough of a buff to at least be decent. I’m pumped.
April 14th, 2008 at 5:12 am
Sirlin, one question: how works the stun damage system in ST? I need to know this for my second question…
April 14th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Oh wow, thanks for the clarification on the invulnerable startup flying kicks. Maybe you could give us a quick lesson on how # of frames of startup vs going through fireballs works… b/c that is what has caused my confusion on the invulnerability talks. I mean, I know Balrog’s headbutts are invulnerable but the strong one doesn’t go through fireballs ever (or is it just at a distance??? Jeez I can’t believe I don’t remember this stuff from the old days). I knew there was something special about Fie Long’s startup on his flying kicks, but just never considered them invulnerable since I knew fireballs would hit him.
April 14th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Thanks for the Fei Long updates!
I loved the zeal pumped into version 2 “I was going to make Fei Long viable, damn it!” Hehe.
April 16th, 2008 at 6:34 am
I never really got into the older Street Fighter games, but all these character change lists have managed to motivate me to learn Super Turbo. Consider your marketing ploy successful. Of course, as of now, I’m still mindboggingly terrible at it, so I can’t really comment much on the changes themselves, apart from Fei Long’s Flying Kicks move. I just spent the better part of yesterday trying to learn to do it, with virtually no success whatsoever, so bravo on simplifying the command.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:11 am
I honestly thought that the Flying Kicks would get a half-circle forward command rather than the quarter circle forward you gave him. I knew the longer reaching super was coming as well…in all honesty just those two would have been enough.
However, I feel that you’ve made the Flying Kicks a useless move with the addition of no advantage on hit as well as no Flying Kick- Feirce-Flying Kick lockdown. Now it seems to have the same lv of usefullness as Chun Li’s Spinning Bird Kick.
I say you should reconsider you just changing the command to HCF+k for the flying kicks and giving greater reach to his super. The timing of his Rekka’s and Flaming Kick would be welcome as well. That’s all Fei Long needs to be an all around good character, designed for aggressive play style.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Hi nighthawk9. If you think the Flying Kicks are “useless” then you have no idea what you are talking about. First of all, the short version goes through fireballs. Second, all of them can juggle into a flame kick now. Third, they have the same invulnerable startup they always did. Also, they are overhead attacks. And finally, Flying Kicks, land, flame kick is pretty damn good. Isn’t that obvious? You are exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness.
April 26th, 2008 at 5:18 am
Hi Sirlin. “Useless” was a harsh term. More “different” now, as I was upset at no corner lock down with Flying Kick-Fierce-Flying Kick. You mentioned it was abusable. From what I understood, it was only useable if the opponent was cornered.
I was just wondering as to why you removed one of the things that gave Fei Long an edge over other characters to begin with.
The Flying Kicks now are a very flexable tool, to that I ask why you didn’t just make them have a HCF command as apposed to a QCF command to keep even the newest of scrubs (like myself) from dominating with him. I see the more difficult command being a deterant to abuse on the casual level, while the professionals still have to try for it.
April 26th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Really…there’s not much of a difference in terms of the skill required to be able to pull off a qcf and a hcf. It’s no biggy, at all.
June 5th, 2008 at 2:15 am
I think I’ve figured you out Mr. Sirlin. Apparently, if you don’t rank top 10 in world tournements in Super Turbo your opinion doesn’t matter and you don’t know what you are talking about.
So Fei Long is fun…..for you. Have you asked Yoobou? Tsuji? Noguchi?
Those 5 frames of stall are all that is keeping Fei Long from being perfect. Right now he is restricted to Punishment tactics, and thats not him.
Your making excuses for this decition that you shouldn’t have made. I don’t think its as dangerous as you are letting yourself believe it is. You should let us….the players…decide if it is or not. 2 months after the game is released and you see nothing but Fei players dominating the Ranking then you can change it. Until then, stop condeming things that shoulnd’t be condemned with no merit.
Don’t ban the card before it’s released.
June 5th, 2008 at 3:28 am
nighthawk: I still don’t know what you’re complaining about. Still the Flying Kicks? I use them all the time. I landed them repeatedly on Choi recently, with followup flame kick juggle. They are very strong, and if the move is already strong enough that players like Choi are slightly grumpy about the high power level (due to damage potential on the juggle), I don’t see why I’d make the move even better than it currently is. I’m not disagreeing because “you are not a top 10 player in the world.” It’s because I have played with these flying kicks for months and still use them all the time, so again, they do not appear weak.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:14 am
[…] SSF2T HD Remix, Part 9: Fei Long Giving him that would be similar to SF3:3rd Strike Chun Li’s ducking medium kick into super. She can stick it out constantly and if it… […]
June 17th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
So the Flame Kick STARTS a juggle now or does it juggle an already airborne opponent?
My issue isn’t with the Flying Kicks in a way, it has to do with the inability to combo after them or lock down an opponent in the corner. Those two items were never abused before in all honesty I don’t see why they would be now at this stage.
Considering on what you have given other characters and what you have let characters keep, I don’t see the rather rare act of combing after Flying Kicks or corner trapping being an issue.
I have seen people winning entir games using nothing but Boxers Headbutt crossup, Honda’s corner Orochi throw trap, and Vega’s wall dives. Yet I have never seen a match won with Fei Long’s corner trap or combo after Flying Kicks. The 3 moves I listed are still in the game and still (although tweaked) as dangerous and as always, viable options for the player. Why deny Fei Long the same options?
June 25th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
I like the idea of having the short being able to surpass hadouken traps and the occasional crouching guile who spams SB’s to keep fei pressured from moving foward, and jumping in with the Flash Kick. Sirlin, because of ST Fei, and how his mix up with the pressuring of CW, into Fierce, tick throw, or the overhead with foward, does his CW Fierce pressure not exist? Can Fei still do a CW, into a crouching jab and combo his rekka? Or was this taken out.
The longer ranges and pokes with his rekka pressure is great, although I don’t know how exactly quick the fierce rekka travles or executes I am sure it is well enough to keep mixup with his strings.
I didn’t read it, but can Fei still combo in his super after a CW from a jumping opponent?
I like the CW into flame kick, I can see how it could be damaging since the defender can simply jump jab or jump attack to blow fei’s momentum, I just hope their is another option rather than the flamekick such as his super as well.
July 7th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I agree with that the CW didn’t need to be changed. That move was a breath of fresh air for him in ST and was exactly what he needed to rank higher. If Ryu gets a fake fireball, Ken gets improved dragon punches / hurricane kicks, then why wouldn’t Fei Long carry over the move from ST? I’m no professional player, but I’m not bad.
- Flying kick QCF+k — IMO it’s TOO easy now, I originally thought it would be changed to HCF+K since the move is powerful.
- Flying kick short through fireballs — Good move, he needed some help in that area.
- Flying kick + 5 frames — I don’t like this for two main reasons: It takes away a trap that was very important to Fei Long’s effectiveness. If the fireball characters have their fireball traps, why shouldn’t Fei Long have a trap? If there is concern about the CW-> s.Fp-> Rekka ken combo power, then if that combo were dumbed down it would make more sense to me than taking the corner trap away. (The CW-> s.Sp-> short flame kick doesn’t take as much damage as I expected it to for instance, so maybe someone already knocked that power down some.) Another reason I don’t like this is because it gives 5 more frames for throw based characters to land a throw after blocking or doing a crouching medium erase move (I’m not sure what you call it, but Dhalsim, Blanka, Guile have this ability that I know of). So if the kick has 5 more frames, then how is Fei Long suppose to make any headway against a good Dhalsim player? I’d take a HCF+K flying kick for the 5 frames back as a trade off if possible, LOL!
- Flying kick worse priority to air — Was this was done since it’s easier to juggle now? Again, I didn’t think the flying kick needed to be throttled.
- Flame kick knock down — This takes away one of my strats to land a glancing medium flame kick to trick someone into trying to counter, but overall this is a good thing since not knocking someone down was frustrating in a tight match.
- Flame kick is easier — great
- Rekka input window larger — even better
- Rekka’s travel farther — Even better than the last, I thought the increased speed from super to ST made the Rekka’s less of a threat. This is great news.
- Further traveling super — Definitely a good thing.
- Super vunerable at head at 4th and 5th hit — Don’t miss, LOL!
- Super meter less with special moves — Probably because the super is more useful now? Being that the flying kick will be used less, I’m not sure about reducing the charge is a great move.
- Super knock down — No big deal…
Something I’d like to see carried over from SSFT2 is Fei Long’s c.Fp range and/or the speed of release. It seems to me that it was dumbed down for ST, and it made a 3 hit Jumping deep Fp / Fk -> s.Mp -> c.Fp basically impossible. Perhaps this was done to take away the Toward + Fk-> c.Fp easy dizzy combo from his arsenal? Maybe for ST they made an effort to remove all non-special 3 hit combos? I’d like to see this return for Fei Long, but I know it’s a long shot. (I believe the startup time for the c.Fk was also toyed with, but I don’t use it much so I can’t say for sure.)
Sirlin, please accept these comments as constructive and not criticizing. The reason we are so forward with our comments is because we are passionate about Fei Long being a real threat. Fei Long is SUCH a great character, and IMO, as good as the original bunch. I was a die-hard Ken player, but now Fei Long is tops in my book. After reading the character changes to powerful characters like Ryu, Sagat, Boxer, etc. the changes to Fei Long will, IMO, keep Fei Long near the same tier, ie. near the bottom. To me, dumbing down the CW would bring him in between the ranks from Super and ST. A less effective Flying Kick means more Rekka’s, and that takes strategy away and makes Fei Long more one dimensional and predictable. Personally, I rarely used Rekka’s in ST, so by dumbing down the Flying Kick it will force players to conform to a certain strategy.
But, in the end, the public can only speculate since you actually have a means to test the gameplay. I would be curious to know what the professional tournament Fei Long players have to say about the changes, however. Bottom line is I’ll buy the game and play with Fei Long the best I can, but I’d hate to revert back to Ken / Ryu as my main player if he’s closer to around SSFT2 effectiveness now.
Thanks for reading
July 7th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
I just read this comment on the Capcom blogs by Seth Killian:
..
“Thoughts varied on the flying kick recovery, but one of the overall themes that has emerged is a de-emphasis on instant death situations with a corresponding increase in overall opportunities.
So instead of Fei Long getting totally dominated for the entire match then finally landing one lucky flying kick into st. fierce, rekka x3, Fei Long is able to get through defenses more easily but not able to do 70%+ combos off of one move that has become both safer and more effective. Also note that in most matches, Fei Long never actually lands that flying kick for the same reasons: it’s too hard to get in.
Fei Long was also able to “lock down” some characters with flying kick traps like Bison (Dictator) and Zangief, as well as giving other characters like Vega a really hard time once he made you block once. We’re definitely against easily repeated loops/traps, so that was another consideration.
The improved Rekkas are definitely a big help, and the super makes a huge difference IMO–much more like Balrog’s super now: when he has it charged, it fundamentally changes the match.
Overall Fei Long is a lot of fun, has some silly juggles, etc. He’s become less of a “get your one shot or you die” character and has become more overall effective.”
..
It makes some sense now, and I definitely welcome the idea that Fei Long is no longer a “one combo or nothing” player. I’d rather beat down my opponent methodically by mentally keeping them on their toes rather than having to land one combo to win. But, even at that, I still am concerned about the 5 frame increase making Fei Long more vulnerable to throws and the Flying Kick less priority to air nerf.