Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix Gameplay, Part 2: Ryu
This article is reprinted with permission from Capcom Unity.
Ryu’s change list is unusual, so let’s start with him. He’s the central character in Street Fighter, both in the story and the game mechanics of fireball/uppercut. In ST, he’s not especially powerful (no one ranks him as top tier), and yet in the hands of an expert he is able to win tournaments. He’s pretty balanced as he is.
I asked tournament player John Choi to give me a complete list of Ryu changes that he requested. Choi is, I think, the #1 Ryu player in the US (check out his crushing victory at Evolution West 2007, among others [editor’s note: HERE is one of those matches from Choi]). Choi contemplated this for weeks and finally came up with his complete list: 1) add a fake fireball, and 2) no other changes.
This was not what I expected, but I immediately liked it. Ryu already has the tools he needs to win, so he doesn’t really need much of a change to win. Choi’s original reasoning for the fake fireball was to give him an answer to Dhalsim’s drills. Dhalsim can drill Ryu on reaction when he sees a fireball, but a fake would trick Dhalsim into committing, then Ryu would recover from the fake and be able to Dragon Punch.
That use of the fake fireball sounds fine, but what’s even better is that is addressed a larger problem, too. In this new game, many characters are more able to get around fireballs than before. This is a delicate thing, so don’t misunderstand me. If we have a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is the effectiveness of fireballs in Super Turbo and 1 is the effectiveness in SF3: 3rd Strike, I’m shooting for an 8. A lot of the non-fireball characters have pretty bad matches in ST, and they need a little help, but we still want fireballs to be strong. We *especially* want fireballs to still be strong for Ryu, the star character.
As soon as I heard the idea for the fake fireball, I realized it was not only what Ryu wanted in ST, but it’s what he needed in HD Remix. Even if other characters now have ways out of fireball traps that they previously didn’t, Ryu would still be able to trap them by tricking them with fakes. You might wonder if this is any better of a situation than in original Super Turbo. After all, I’m saying Ryu can fireball trap a lot of characters in both games, so what’s changed? What’s changed is that there is now a lot more of a mind-game on both sides of those fights. Ryu *still* has the tools to fireball trap Bison, Honda, Fei Long, etc., but now each player must get into the other’s head to escape the trap or keep it going. It’s great stuff.
Before implementing this, I also talked to Nekohashi, one of the best Ryu players in Japan. I asked him for his list of Ryu changes for a new version of Street Fighter and his response was something close to “No changes needed, Ryu’s design is already perfect.” I said ok, but how about this idea of adding just one thing: a fake fireball? Nekohashi said, “Yes! That is a masterpiece. Give him that move and nothing else.” I think Nekohashi probably had similar reasoning to mine above, because I had already explained to him a few ways that various weaker characters would have to avoid fireballs.
With Nekohashi's blessing, we finally added this move to the game. I know it makes a better story when things turn out totally differently than you expect, but the fake fireball turned out exactly as we expected, at least so far. It really does add an interesting mind-game to a lot of fights. It also has another use as a rushdown tool, such as cancelling low roundhouse or low fierce into a fake fireball, then quickly throwing the opponent. This technique actually lets you recover slightly faster than if you did low roundhouse or low fierce alone, and also the visuals trick the opponent into blocking, so it's an effective technique. I think it's not overly powerful though, but we'll continue to test it and keep an eye on this.
The command for fake fireball is qcf + short. Ryu players tend to fake with short anyway, so this was a natural place for it. Also, putting it only on short kick ensures that you will never ever accidentally get the move when (on button up) you try to do low medium kick or low roundhouse into a real fireball.
So there we have it. The first character change list I'm presenting to you is unusually short: only one item long! But it's quite an item with power that ripples through a lot of matches.
—Sirlin
You can post comments here, but if you want a response, you have a better chance at Capcom Unity.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:03 am
Excellent idea, but are you certain that a fireball fake-out, relative to the power boost the mid and low tiers are getting, is enough to keep Ryu a viable character? I know that you did not fail to consider that, but you hardly mentioned it in this article.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:25 am
Seems like a good change to help Ryu in his weak match-ups without making his strong ones too lopsided. Brilliant idea from Choi.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:39 am
With all these changes, I’m just going to play ST HD as a totally new game, and keep practicing ST as another. I beat its going to be awesome, but still… its a new game.
November 20th, 2007 at 7:21 am
It’s going to be interesting to see how this impacts Ryu’s up-close game, I think. He already has a really effective rushdown game with low RH -> FB, whiff f+Fierce to throw/dp, red FBs, etc. Seems like this is going to make his rushdown even more deadly. It’ll be interesting to see how that pans out.
November 20th, 2007 at 8:37 am
Is this going to go to Ken as well? With his stronger dragon-punch, it seems an even more powerful tool in his hands.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:55 am
[…] Check it out! While looking through the blogosphere we stumbled on an interesting post today.Here’s a quick excerpt This article is reprinted with permission from Capcom Unity. Ryu’s change list is unusual, so let’s start with him. He’s the central character in Street Fighter, both in the story and the game mechanics of fireball/uppercut. In ST, he’s not especially powerful (no one ranks him as top tier), and yet in the hands of an expert he is able to win tournaments. He’s pretty balanced as he is. I asked tournament player John Choi to give me a complete list of Ryu changes that he requested. Choi is, I […]
November 20th, 2007 at 11:48 am
I remember when I use to think I was pretty good at Street Fighter II. Whenever I read something like this, I’m not sure what game I was actually playing. It’s still incredibly fascinating, though, and the single new move for Ryu is a really elegant change.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:55 am
I’ve never been a fan of fighting games, but I find design articles like this one fascinating. I’m looking forward to the next one in the series.
November 20th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
[…] Sirlin placed an interesting blog post on Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix Gameplay, Part 2: Ryu.Here’s a brief overview:He’s the central character in Street Fighter, both in the story and the game mechanics of fireball/uppercut. In ST, he’s not especially powerful (no one ranks him as top tier), and yet in the hands of an expert he is able to win … […]
November 20th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
[…] more here […]
November 21st, 2007 at 2:51 am
Dear David,
The changes to Ryu seem very interesting and I’m really excited to play it. But I wanna talk about something else for now.
I’ve always been a fan of your site and your writing. However, I’ve become a bit tired of the 3rd Strike bashing. I love both 3rd Strike and ST… and it pains me to see one get trashed at the expense of another that’s just as awesome. Yes, the parry eliminates the whole zoning aspect that’s dominant in all of the Street Fighter II series. However, you refuse to look at the bigger picture beyond that. Parrying helps eliminate gameplay that is repetitive and bland. In this setting, people need to come up with new ideas rather than “I’ll keep this fireball shit going until this noob makes a mistake” or “Fuck man, how am I going to get around this fireball and pwn this cheap little bitch”?
This introduces much more to the game than that. If someone throws a fireball in 3s, their opponent isn’t just in safe haven 200% of the time like you seem to portray it. If they decide to parry it, then they are leaving shitloads of vulnerable frames where their opponent can do virtually anything to punish them. At the same time, the person who tries to punish can STILL be punished because the parry-er can decide to block out of the parry, let his opponent make the mistake, and then capitalize on it. And because everything is so easily counter-able, it helps compensate for what would otherwise be a relatively unbalanced character list (SUP ST). In 3s, it’s common for low tiers (Hugo, Q, Alex, Twelve) to do well in tournaments. In ST, I don’t think I’ve ever seen see Cammy, Zangief or Fei Long make it anywhere.
On top of that, parrying and all of he other tech scenarios allow for people to develop their own character rather than mastering the game’s limits of what a character can/can’t do. If you watch high level matches of Ryu in ST, fireballs are REQUIRED to be an effective player. But if you watch high level matches of Ryu in 3s, it varies. Alex Valle uses lots of fireballs to keep the pressure on at all points of the screen while Frankie3s focuses on getting in your face, taking huge risks and creating Denjin Hadouken set-ups. Both styles are effective and both allow those players to win. Alex Valle’s frequent fireball style is obviously inspired from is ST playing, and he’s now widely considered to be one of the best 3rd Strike players in the U.S. (not to mention he beat Daigo). And you say the fireball in 3s is a 1 in regards to effectiveness?
November 21st, 2007 at 4:50 am
Sirlin are there any changes to improve Guile(i use old Guile)? I am requesting that Guile’s low foward will be improved.
November 21st, 2007 at 4:52 am
Sirlin are there any changes to improve Guile(i use old Guile)? I am requesting that Guile’s low foward will be improved.
November 21st, 2007 at 10:37 am
Yeah…that’s one of your best articles in a long time, Sirlin.
::sniff::
I’m really looking forward to this game.
November 21st, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Add some juggle mechanism (ala SFA3) or chains maybe? We are sick of combos in ST; we need to feel this is a fighting game meaning more impact hits!
November 21st, 2007 at 10:26 pm
No.
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:52 am
i hope you will fix guile/vega’s insane super motion, or at least its small window of frames. (you didn’t mention it in the changes report) and the fact that balrog super has a big window to perform while chun has a much smaller one which makes it alot harder.
November 27th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Sontawila, you should have mentioned another game besides alpha 3, not that i think its bad, its just Sirlin despises that game (and 3rd strike). But there are still a good amount juggles and links to float anyones boat in this game. (There is more comboing in this game then the alphas minus the supers and the first alpha)
To tataki, its not that the super is hard to do, its just that they put it down wrong.
Try this instead, charge down/back, then do a HCB to up/back kick. basicly after you charge, do a reverse tiger knee. I can do those supers without thinking now. I think putting it down as down/back, down/forward, down/back, up/forward k was to complicated and people kept trying to do it that way and failing miserably. This method lets you do those moves in a single motion and you can pull it out faster then most of the other characters supers.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:01 am
I’m just worried about the scope of these adjusted controls. The only real control change that I think really needs to be done is Fei Long’s Dragon Kick (or whatever it’s called). Change that to a half-circle forward rather than a 412369+K. I just don’t want to see Marvel-style qcf+LP+MP supers. I doubt that would happen, but I think that tough-to-do controls are just something to deal with.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:23 am
Why? Tough controls suck. If the game was made right, it should be balanced and fun when you have instant access to all the available moves. Are you worried you won’t be able to win when your opponents don’t screw up their inputs or something?
How does it help gameplay in anyway to require players to practice doing 360s without ever holding one of the three up directions for more than 3 frames before they can start actually “playing” the game? (As is required to pull off T.hawk’s SPD)
November 28th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Because that’s the game. If you say we should make the moves easier, then why not make the combos easier? From there, why not make throwing easier? Why not reduce the number of buttons? Why not condense everything into having one button labeled “GO!” like one of the mockups for the Nintendo Revolution controller from 2004?
The games aren’t built to have “instant access.” If you’re too lazy, inept or unwilling to commit the inputs to memory and be able to do them consistently, you’re unlikely to be motivated, ept, or willing enough to master combos or any of the technical aspects of the game. And in either case, you’re just going to wash out at low-mid level play.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Learning the proper character positions, when to use which moves, and all that other stuff you mentioned is a purely mental excercise. And that part *is* the game. You’re literally trying to outsmart your opponent in fighting games to claim victory, just like when playing something like chess. And, like chess, it takes a vast amount of training and knowledge of situations that occur in the game to consistently win.
Having a random physical dexterity challenge is *not* the game. Knowing exactly what I need to do to beat my opponent, and accidentally taking 4/60ths of a second to press up, when I needed to only use 3/60ths of a second is a completely useless standard for determining who won. It means my hand fumbled, not that my opponent won by successfully applying any of the mental elements of the game.
This is, of course, distinct from the necessary dexterity challenge… that each move has to have a unique execution. There is a limit to how much you can simplify just due to the number of moves. Clearly a super won’t become a QFC, if merely because the character already have something mapped to QCF. But it doesn’t serve anyone to complicate things past the point of each command being unique (and ergonomic, i.e. 41236 and 426 should never be distinct commands).
November 29th, 2007 at 11:57 am
If that’s the stupidest thing you’ve ever heard, apparently you haven’t been paying close attention to what you’ve been writing, or you wrote that, then were too lazy to go back and change it. Because that post was sheer scrubbery.
Fighting games aren’t just about thought. That’s part of it and, depending on the game, a large part of it. But no matter which game you look at, execution, timing and control is either just as important or more important. Einstein could think circles around anybody he would’ve played Street Fighter with, but that doesn’t mean anything if he can’t do anything with it. Just like in a real fight, if you can figure out the most glaring weakness in your opponent, but you’re totally unable to exploit it, it makes no difference. Similarly, if you have the greatest idea in the world and you can’t articulate it, it’s not any better than a mediocre idea somebody else had that they COULD articulate.
And of COURSE execution is a critical aspect to decide who “deserved to win.” The game isn’t determined by who can think of the best way to win. The Patriots versus Eagles game wasn’t decided by who had the better strategy. I don’t recall a football game decided by “oh, well, the other team deserved to win because their strategy was better, so it shouldn’t matter that the QB couldn’t hit his receiver 30 yards out, because they had the better strategy.” If you can’t do a T. Hawk command throw and you lose because you whiffed it into a jump, guess what? You deserved to lose. In all seriousness, your post was sheer scrubbery.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
I hate to pull rank here, but Claytus really nailed it and that’s exactly the reasoning behind this entire new game. Tests of strategy are interesting. Tests of your ability to hold up for 2 60ths of a second rather than 3 60ths are not interesting. Besides, there are plenty of dexterity and timing intensive techniques left, even if executing individual special moves is a bit easier.
–Sirlin
November 29th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Well…
::brushes off hands::
…that ends that.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
You sound so… unremorseful… having just lost the argument by act of god. I hate posting after Sirlin, but I think a few more worthwhile elaborations can be made.
You seem to have missed the point, which was that execution is *not* critical, because it is known by everyone who plays at tournament level and beyond, and who all have nearly 100% perfect execution, that the game is exciting and fun. The idea of the changes is to let others experience that same fun. I still can’t fathom why you have an issue with that? Do you love the idea of ST being some exclusive club where everyone with a 1/60th of a second slower hand than you isn’t allowed to join? Are you scared you’ll be unable to win if your opponents are actually succesful in pulling off the move that would beat you? There’s really not a single good reason I can think of to support what you’ve said.
Secondly… and much worse, you said: The Patriots versus Eagles game wasn’t decided by who had the better strategy.
Do you even know what football is? There is a reason that post-game discussions center around what plays each team decided to make, and how well they worked. Because strategy has decided every pro game of football ever played. Yes, physical aptitude is a part of the sport, and yes many individual players are amazing. But tell me the last time a single player completely won the game… even Shaq, the basketball god (I don’t know the names of any football players offhand;;), has been proven unable to singlehandedly win games. And last but not least, fumbles are a known element of the game, completely expected, and balanced in the rules. There’s a reason these games go on for an hour, instead of ten minutes… to make individual player mistakes as insignificant as possible when compared to team effort by allowing enough time for either team to win despite one bad throw by the QB or w/e else happens.
Fighting games, not containing any of the features I stated above are *not* analagous to football, in any way. They are single player, of extremely short duration, and as I said, before, completely a mental excercise when played at the highest levels of play, as execution is no longer a factor. This makes them analagous to speed chess, and many other mental games, not any physical sports.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
You seemed to have missed my point too. If you whiff a Thunder Hawk command throw and lose as a result, it’s no different than under-throwing a wide receiver and losing as a result.
And you don’t hear fighting gamers saying “well, he’s the real winner, because whether or not you’re able to do a move is an arbitrary base-line for who’s the better player, which is what actually determines the winner of a match” and, similarly, you don’t hear NFL commentators saying “well, the Eagles actually won that game because they figured out what the weakness for New England was, and whether or not he’s able to execute a single pass is an arbitrary base-line to determine who’s the better team, which is what actually determines the winner of a match.”
And the only argument that you could make regarding a disparity in comparing sports and fighting games is that one is a team sport, while the other is not. But that’s beside the point.
November 30th, 2007 at 2:44 am
Everything you said there is correct (except you seem to be underestimating how vast the disparity between team sports and fighting games really is, it’s enough to make them not analagous)… but you still haven’t actually addressed the question with any of your responses? Why is a full 720 better than 2 HCBs? The execution requirements STILL EXIST in the remixed game. They’re just slightly more lenient. Why is that a problem for you?
December 1st, 2007 at 10:58 am
Because, as I said, I think that outside that one move for Fei Long, the controls in ST were beyond functional. Making the game easier doesn’t add anything to the game. The only people who will be especially affected by the easier controls are scrubs. As I said, if you were unable or unwilling to work at being able to pull off the moves, you’re going to be even MORE unable or unwilling to be learn combos, pressure strings, mind games and everything else that makes a good player that comes long after learning the moves.
Pretty much if somebody was going to get fed up and quit ST because they couldn’t learn the moves, they’re going to just get fed up and quit when they’re confronted with all the other aspects of the game.
December 1st, 2007 at 5:06 pm
I’m sorry, but I’m living proof that you’re completely wrong. The problem is you seem to be expecting that people are either playing ST already or not interested in fighting games at a high level. That’s simply not true… I made a specific choice not to play ST not because I couldn’t handle the learning curve, but because there are numerous other games that have an arguably higher mental payoff with less of a physical execution requirement.
In virtua fighter, the most complicated command used for a single move takes 4 directional inputs (a 270 throw)… and I believe even Sirlin has stated that playing it requires more yomi and mental interaction with your opponent than ST, and arguably a higher execution requirement as well due to things such as buffered throw escapes and dashes.
GGXX also has been lauded here numerous times by Sirlin, and while I don’t know every character’s movelist by heart in that game, I don’t remember a single move more complicated than the simplified commands Sirlin is creating for ST.
There is a huge fanbase out there (it happens that ST was actually the first fighting game I ever played), that will be willing to give the game another shot with some of these changes Sirlin is making. There just wasn’t any reason to try and relearn traditional ST when I came back to the fighting genre in recent years, largely due to the mass stupidity inherent in it’s control scheme when compared to the competition.
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:44 am
Saying you quit the game because you could do better things with your time is the same thing as saying it’s too hard.
But to say that Guilty Gear doesn’t have things harder to do than a T. Hawk throw is simply wrong. Especially when you take into consideration the Eddie unblockables, and even the “simple” gunflame FRC. Really, cmon now.
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:31 pm
I hate to do this to you too, Spudly, ’cause we’re buds but execution is the ONLY reason keeping me from playing ST. I find it funny that you’re calling me a scrub because of this and I don’t think you’ve ever beat me consistently, if at all, in any game.
You seem caught up in trying to prove someone wrong instead of searching for a truth. You’ve yet to provide a good reason for difficult execution. The only two attempts were “that’s the way it is” and “it’s easy for me.”
Eddy unblockables are situational/timing dependent anyway. It has little to do with move input. Those kind of conditionals are difficult to ‘remedy’ like remedying command timing and input. While you’re right about FRC, I think they’re difficult too(and lame) and so do countless others. However FRC gunflame is oodles easier than a standing 720 or even a standing 360 to others.
Most command inputs deal with dexterity while many FRC’s have to do with timing. Dexterity is generally an attribute of varying levels and the inputs apply across the spectrum. The rhythm required for a FRC is at a much lower standard than difficult motion inputs. Thus I think the FRC example, while also targeted at proving someone wrong instead of arguing your own point, falls short of this because it’s a bad analogy between the two input types.
I too, fail to see any reason why this would hinder you–in fact I feel it helps you. Not only lessening your mistakes, but bringing more players to a game you enjoy.
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:36 pm
I dunno what you’re trying to say with your first sentence there, spudly… I’m gonna let you in on the little known fact that not every ST player makes all their money winning tournaments. There’s plenty of reasons people might be forced to quit that have nothing to do with the game whatsoever.
And while kicks covered it… to sum up: Both your counter-examples are part of the mental game (timing and positioning). An FRC involves pressing three buttons together… any way you want to look at it, that’s easier, execution-wise than a 720 motion. Now, it may be more difficult to learn how to properly apply an FRC in the middle of a match… but that’s a completely seperate issue. If you just go into tutorial mode and sit there doing one single attack on a computer that’s not even moving, then the 720 motion requires more practice than any GGXX moves to obtain a high success rate.
December 3rd, 2007 at 7:43 am
Well, we HAVE only played Garou, Kicks. But I’m calling him a scrub for saying, and I quote, “Knowing exactly what I need to do to beat my opponent, and accidentally taking 4/60ths of a second to press up, when I needed to only use 3/60ths of a second is a completely useless standard for determining who won.” To say that you really won because you know what you SHOULD have done, and that whether or not you pulled it off (and won) is a “useless standard for determining who won,” is textbook scrubbery. And, as Sirlin said at some point in some article, there are plenty of other games out there to play if you don’t like it.
And come, come. FRCs are “hip” and “where it’s at.” The people who criticize GG for having FRCs are the same people who criticize SNK games. And we both love those. FRCs and RCs aren’t all about timing, and, especially when you use them in things like with Sol’s Bandit Bringer FRC used as a fast jump back in #R, and gunflame FRC for pressure, would fall under execution more than anything else.
And come, come Claytus. The first sentence was referring to you saying “I made a specific choice not to play ST not because I couldn’t handle the learning curve, but because there are numerous other games that have an arguably higher mental payoff with less of a physical execution requirement.” Which is, really, the same thing as saying that you quit because it was too hard. And an FRC is pressing three buttons in as slim as a window as, you guessed it, three frames. Now, this wouldn’t even been an issue if you hadn’t said “GGXX also has been lauded here numerous times by Sirlin, and while I don’t know every character’s movelist by heart in that game, I don’t remember a single move more complicated than the simplified commands Sirlin is creating for ST,” but to say that GGXX is great while ST isn’t, when GG has you pressing three buttons within (gasp) three sixtieths of a second while ST has you pressing (gasp) a direction within three sixtieths of a second is, really, hypocrisy.
And yeah, there are much harder things to do in GGXX than a 720.
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
It really would be nice if you wanted to actually take part in the debate we’re having, instead of just insulting me nonstop. You still have yet to give a single reason that you like the high execution requirements of ST that didn’t boil down to calling me a scrub for having the audacity to disagree with you. I’m done responding here, since defending myself is completely irrelevant to the topic we started with.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Wasn’t it so that Daigo chose to fight with Balrog (boxer) instead of Ryu in the Evolution finals because he was having trouble doing Dragon Punches? (I believe it had to do with Evolution being played on consoles)
He still won, but imagine if he lost. The fighting game almanac would probably have a * next to his name mentioning that he had technical difficulties.
Now I can understand that some people enjoy the persperation that a video game can demand in order to compete, since it’s fun to practise things.
But I myself would prefer fighting games to be 100% dependant on strategy and tactics, not execution. I applaud Sirlin’s work and look forward to more of this kind of work.
December 5th, 2007 at 1:26 am
I’m not insulting you, I’m calling you a scrub. It’s a statement of fact and I quoted you for it. You can say that you made a typo, but if you actually believe what you said verbatim, then you’re a scrub because you think that anything other than who beats the opponent into having 0 health determines who the winner of a game is.
But to boil down the already-made point of why the execution should remain almost identical (like I said, I definitely am rooting for a changed Fei Long flying kick), I’m not an especially high-caliber player, and I can do any move in every fighting game (outside a select few moves like the Dead Rave in recent Guilty Gears or the classic Raising Storm in Fatal Fury). Very, very few moves in fighting games are tough to the point where they are worth changing. In these days of Soul Caliburs and license fighting games, most gamers are expecting every move to be as simple as pressing a direction and a button. People are expecting a dust loop to be as easy as doing a 540 kick flip into a manual in Tony Hawk or a pressure string to be as simple and straight forward as the entirety of God of War. We have somebody in the FAQ for STHDR saying that a DRAGON PUNCH is too difficult to pull off. It’s far too slippery a slope to really, in my opinion, to be trying to make the game “more accessible.” How many people, really, would be any more able to do a T. Hawk command throw if he couldn’t even jump? How many of these people would stop because “throwing is cheap”? The simple fact is that it’s all right there for you as it is right now. “It’s fine the way it is?” Yeah, I think so. And I’m not one of the people who are huge on “arcade perfection,” either. It might help some people, but will it double the turnout at EVO three years from now? And, more importantly, do you think that a new batch of high-level players will come about directly as a result of simpler controls? I don’t think so.
I’ve played with people who quit Dead or Alive 4 because they couldn’t do things like an Izuna Drop (half circle, full circle in the air) or a Bayman back-breaker (hcf+A). So, when it comes to making things more accessible to players, I think you’ll be seeing people complaining about how hard it is to do a Dragon Punch, leading them into a rant on how much better Smash Bros is, until you make things simple to the point where literally anyone can do it. Am I saying that everyone who is interested in playing high-level Street Fighter is already doing so? Not at all. Am I saying that anybody interested in playing high-level Street Fighter will do even if they have to spend time in practice mode to be able to pull off a standing 360? Yes.
December 5th, 2007 at 1:28 am
Edit: But I still am loving a rebalanced ST here. I’m definitely, totally for a rebalancing, and I’m seriously looking forward to getting this game.
December 5th, 2007 at 3:22 am
Quote: “So, when it comes to making things more accessible to players, I think you’ll be seeing people complaining about how hard it is to do a Dragon Punch, leading them into a rant on how much better Smash Bros is, until you make things simple to the point where literally anyone can do it.”
So, your problem with simplified controls is that you specifically don’t want other people to be able to play? Even I’ll admit it wouldn’t be ST without the shoryuken… but seriously, that’s your point? lol, I guess I’ll abide by your wishes and continue not playing.
December 5th, 2007 at 3:41 am
To me, fighting games with moves that are ridiculously difficult to execute don’t seem a lot different in principle than Sirlin’s opinion of FPS games as “aim the crosshairs” simulators (or something close to that). It would seem that simplifying absurd joystick motions into more reasonable ones would drive a fighting game away from what Sirlin decries about FPSs.
These SSF2THDR changes seem pretty consistent with Sirlin’s philosophies.
I just realized after typing this post that this is the Ryu blog, not the one that discusses the relaxed/more sane joystick inputs. I don’t know where this went awry.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:17 am
That’s quite possibly the most moronic over-simplification I’ve read on the internet. And I frequented shoryuken.com. Do I want people to not play? No, of course not. Do I want the game dumbed down and changed as to maximize the number of people who would buy it? Absolutely not. Which is what you’re advocating, apparently.
You don’t seem able to make the distinction between keeping it a good game and making it a game lots of people will buy. Capcom could’ve taken Street Fighter, made it 3d and made it into a Smash Bros. clone YEARS ago if they wanted to. And in that way, I’m glad we haven’t seen a new Street Fighter, because it could’ve ended up the next high-selling POS fighting game like SSBM or Naruto: Clash of Ninja with loads of “accessibility.” Keeping STHDR similar outside a few changes is the best thing for the Street Fighter series.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Whatever yours reasons for wanting to remain an elite player at the expense of people who can’t execute within 1/60th of a second, you still lose to Sirlin. Go prove yourself as a game designer, then rebalance SF yourself if you think you can do better. I’ll wait here.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:27 am
I already said that I’m not close to being an elite player. And there aren’t any single moves that require you to do things within 1/60 of a second. I think you need to read what’s been said before you comment further.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:42 am
But 2/60th or 3/60th of a second moves are fair game?
December 7th, 2007 at 4:11 am
It’s obvious you’re not an elite player, nor will you be given your ideas of what “elite” must mean. I don’t need to read everything to know Sirlin has already addressed what matters. I’m just tired of seeing you try to write the same thing over and over, thinking you’re pointing out relevant distinctions, or thinking you are on Claytus’s intellectual level. You’re coming dangerously close to degenerating this into an SRK thread. All we need now is for me to keep arguing with you, but you’re not worth my time.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:11 am
Let’s be completely clear here… it’s technically two inputs within 3/60ths of a second, (press direction, release direction before jump (3 frames - 2 inputs = 1 frame for error)), and the only reason it’s an issue even then is mostly because you have to do it ~6 times in a row for a 720. A single input within a 3/60ths of a second window without the above need for repetition really shouldn’t be an issue for anyone, it sounds a lot faster than it actually is.
And even with the 720, the argument is merely that it’s unnecessary.
(P.S.: doesn’t ST have stuff like reversals that technically do require specific 1/60th of a second timing… I’m not sure how the ST input buffer works, so that probably falls under my own “not a single move” comment, just curious.)
(P.P.S.: VF does include one (in)famous move that requires the player to press and release a button within 1/60th of a second… it’s not nearly as useful as a super in ST, so people just don’t bother with it, instead of needing to complaing, but even that move has players that can consistently pull it off during matches)
December 7th, 2007 at 11:55 am
No, it’s one input. And yes, two or three sixtieths of a second is entirely fair game. It’s fair game for an Eddie unblockable in Guilty Gear for two sixtieths of a second and it’s fair for a Gunflame FRC in three sixtieths of a second.
Since many of you here are clearly Smash players, or typically play other D-student fighting games like Soul Calibur and One Piece: Grand Battle, I don’t think you can really comment. Seriously, I literally LOL’d when I read Forty saying “2/60ths and 3/60ths of a second are fair game? No, lol i win kthxbai!1!” When it’s already been well established that yes, 2 or 3 sixtieths of a second are, in fact, fair game. People can do gunflame FRCs in 3/60ths of a second with EASE (look up any “combo video,” which are videos where people do a bunch of combos, and record it so you can see how good they are).
I try not to be an ass on this site out of respect for Sirlin, but cmon, people. You should at least know the general gist of what you’re talking about before you start (pathetically) trying to call me out for it.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Hmm… I have no idea what I was thinking earlier… it is one input, in terms of the stupid little parenthetical math equation I wrote about frames. That said, I stand by my assertion that the release does make a slight difference, and does increase the difficulty over something like an FRC where you can press the buttons, and hold them down for a year, and the move still will have executed.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Are your hands made of lead and coated in juicy juice so that they’re too heavy to take off a button and too sticky to let go or something? The time it takes to STOP PRESSING A BUTTON is less than 1/60th of a second. Come on, man. Are you going to start saying that they need to remake the game because you can’t not press a button fast enough?
December 8th, 2007 at 1:57 am
Gimme a break, man, even you must know that every single game we’ve mentioned here accepts negative edge inputs, and throws them in the buffer just like everything else. I can list a number of moves in VF that are incredibly easy to guard cancel by mistake if you aren’t even more precise releasing the buttons than you were pressing them (especially if any of the buttons on your controller are at all ’sticky’, which is a fairly common issue with arcade sticks). I don’t know that ST has a precise equivalent to guard cancelling… but look at somethign like the walk forward > fireball/shoryuken problem… learning how to properly release forward in the walk is key to correctly performing that kind of input.
December 8th, 2007 at 6:38 am
I don’t remember posting “No, lol i win kthxbai!1!”
December 9th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Forty, the best thing you could do right now with such a blatant lack of knowledge of the very games you’re trying to outwit me over is close your browser and walk off.
Claytus, maybe you aren’t especially nimble-fingered (or nimble-thumbed, if you use a pad), but there really isn’t an exceptionally huge issue with people not being able to un-press their buttons. In fact, watch Sirlin’s CCC2 videos, as he mentions some ST tricks with unpressing buttons which help with moves.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
i just wanted to address one Claytus’ ill-concieved comments:
“Claytus Says:
November 28th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
…Learning the proper character positions, when to use which moves, and all that other stuff you mentioned is a purely mental excercise.”
So is performing the moves quickly.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:32 am
What exactly do you mean by that? Performing the moves as fast as possible, which seems to be what you’re implying, is a completely mindless endeavor. In fact, purposely delaying moves is a considered a very viable high level strategy in many fighting games, assuming you know how to apply the delay properly.
Executing proper timing, and using varying timing in response to how your opponent is playing, is always superior to “quickly”.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:29 am
Not really. Plus, being able to do a move quicky is important for good execution.
January 11th, 2008 at 4:51 am
What are you talking about, spud? Would you like specific examples… in VF, fuzzy guard is one of the simplest, most common defensive techniques. It’s basically just ducking and standing up while at disadvantage, while holding guard. Due to the way crouching animation lines up against attack speeds, it happens that in most cases, you can successfully duck underneath a throw attempt, and then stand up fast enough to block a mid attack, if your opponent decided not to throw. One of the cleanest and simplest ways to defeat fuzzy guarding, is to just delay your throw, so it lands after the opponent stands up… doing arbitrary “quick” moves, makes it almost impossible to hit someone who’s using fuzzy guard.
It doesn’t really apply to execution either. Most fighting games include an input buffer, such that if you bother buffering your moves, you usually have way more time than you need to execute them. Using another VF example, there’s a special technique known as “1-frame delay”, it involves using attacks such forward, forward, punch (66P). If you get all three inputs “quickly”, they will all occur in the input buffer, and your attack will come out as soon as the buffer ends. If, instead, you input both forwards during the buffer, and then wait and input the punch after the buffer, the game will think the two forwards was a dash attempt, and then when you input the punch, it will immediately begin the attack, most commonly this results in a single frame of dash animation, which is why it’s referred to as “1-frame delay”. It happens that this technique is actually required for certain combos to land, and despite the way it may sound from my description, it’s incredibly easy to do. All you need is to slow down your input speed, I’ve never seen anyone I taught it too have any trouble doing it, once they just learned to relax and slow down.
To be a good player, you need to learn correct timing as I originally stated, not do things “quickly”.
January 17th, 2008 at 5:32 am
I am a little dissapointed with the move that Ryu gets for the HD version of ST. Seriously, a fake fireball? Last time I heard nobody is even scared of the REAL fireball. I also note from the phone webcam video of ST HD in Youtube that the fake fireball does not even include Ryu’s voicebox of saying “Hadouken!”. My argument is how the heck people will fall for that trick if Ryu does not even say the move’s name? It doesn’t matter if it recovers faster than the real hadouken because people will just go forward and kick Ryu in the nuts (as they are aware that the fake hadouken is performed) Also, fake fireball in Alpha 3 has got to be one of the worst moves ever put, and I haven’t seen anybody use it to its supposed “potential.” Look, I know I’m bitching right now, but hear me for what it is I am trying to say. I request that Ryu says “hadouken!” when he performs the fake hadouken so it looks and sounds very similar to the real hadouken. This will in effect make the fake hadouken effective instead of another useless move that will ruin the short button.
January 17th, 2008 at 5:49 am
Also why the hell Ken gets so many “old” stuff back and poor Ryu was left with a soundless fake hadouken? I thought it’s Ryu who said “You Must Defeat Sheng Long (or Dragon Punch) to Stand a Chance” not Ken!!! Don’t you remember back in HF where Ryu was not afraid to take Ken in a close range fight? Give him a proper Dragon Punch priority and not the nerfed ST Ryu’s DP. Ryu really needs it to fight the big 5 top tiers (O. Sagat, Dhalsim, Chun, Vega, Balrog).
January 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Are you serious? Most people I’ve heard discussing ryu’s fake fireball were afraid it would make him too powerful, rather than the reverse. I don’t think that video is enough to say whether the fake fireball will have sound or not in the final version, but regardless you’re talking about response times of 1/3 of a second or less… there’s very, very few people in the world that can react and counter consistently purely on sight/sound after the move has started.
January 17th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
to disappointed: First, Ryu has better fireballs in SF while Ken has better Dragon Punches. It’s totally flavor-consistent that I carried this on in HD Remix.
Next, Ryu’s fireball is very powerful in ST and you are misinformed if you think otherwise. It shuts down Honda and Fei Long (to name just a couple), it locks down Bison in the corner, it keeps Ryu in the game vs Guile, and so on.
Finally, the new fake fireball is very powerful. The question is definitely whether it’s too powerful, not the other way around. Many tournament players who have played the game consider it more of an upgrade than all of Ken’s stuff put together. It makes his fireball traps very tricky and often baits people to jump.
–Sirlin
January 17th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
To Claytus,
You don’t believe that sound aspect will play a big role in defeating someone? here’s a link to a match between Daigo vs Gunze. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ypkicmkoU Daigo got defeated in the 1st round purely by a misjudgment. I’m assuming that Daigo thought Gunze already got him in SPD as the attack does have the same voicebox (he could’ve tech throw that easily). This is only an instance of course, but I can recall from my own experiences of gaming and other players I know that senses play big roles especially in tight situations. Last, 1/3 of a second is all the pros need to make a reversal on their opponents.
To Sirlin,
Your comment on how the tourney players found it useful gives me some relief on how things will turn out in the HD version of ST.
I really appreciate your quick response to the post, and hopefully my comment can at least spark some further brainstorming and thinking on your team’s behalf on how to finish the game.
January 18th, 2008 at 1:28 am
I was under the impression that would-be lethal throws can’t be teched, so Daigo couldn’t have teched there even if he tried.
January 18th, 2008 at 2:56 am
“disappointed”… it’s not a good idea to base design arguments on people like Daigo, in general. I didn’t say reaction times of 1/3 of a second are impossible… it’s just extremely difficult (at 1/4 second it probably roughly where it actually becomes impossible). I imagine the top 10-15 players of fighting games like ST can pull it off, and Daigo is definitely up there. But by that same token, those top 10-15 players are in essence, playing a different game than the rest of the world… even the highly competitive rest of the world.
March 6th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
4 thineg ryu need IMHO
Add differece between red and normal fireballs
d+shortX2 always connect to super
fix his cross up
make him harder for scrubs to use
March 6th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
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March 29th, 2008 at 1:58 am
Why did you guys even take a srk scrub (who got banned btw) like spudley seriously in the first place?
Sirlin I applaud you for being able to take the plight of both casual gamer and the competitive tourney player into consideration when making this game. Too many games end up going too far in either one direction or the other, yet yours seems perfectly compromised.
The days of complicated execution and buggy inputs are over. I think we would want sf to be approachable to a whole new audience so a whole new generation of sf fans can emerge. The rampant elitism and outright stubborness displayed by people like spudley in the SF community is exactly the reason we are an underground, niche, forgotten, and neglected segment of the gaming world. If we exclude casual players, we do so at our own peril. And as everyone who’s had the local arcade close can realize, playing street fighter by yourself is no fun at all.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
It seems like most characters had there abusable super meter gaining moves nerfed. Blankas back hopp and boxers TAP and headbutt now generate less meter, because they gave the charachter either a fast safe way to gain super or fast access to a really good super. Why isn’t Ryu’s backwards jumping air hurricane kick nerfed? His super is one of the best in the game, and to allmost safely charge a full bar in just a couple of seconds seems abusable to me. This super is also very game changing against some other fireball characters, which is kind of nice and gives Ryu a edge in matchups he otherwise would have trouble with (Dhalsim, Sagat). But in these matches he should be able to gain meter by just keep throwing fireballs or DPing throgh there fire balls.